Event: Harrag (actor: Brendan Cowell) - New Follower/Prisoner (Political Wins)
Episode 2: Stormborn at 53:37
Ellaria and Tyene Sand are taken prisoner by one of Euron's Ironborn soldiers, Harrag.
(New Follower/Prisoner)
submitted by hkeseyan (rejected: prisoner control goes straight to Euron, not much evidence for Harrag having independent control)
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The Ironborn who shakes his head when Ellaria says "Kill us. Get it over with." looks like Brendan Cowell who was reported to take the role of an Ironborn soldier named Harrag. Some sources have reported that this was in fact Harrag:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Harrag
https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/24/16018224/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-2-stormborn-recap-fantasy-league
-hkeseyan
jedjackoway and nyan like this -
Ooh, good find on the new char. I suppose that delays Euron's prisoner points until we seem them in his custody. -nyan
hkeseyan likes this -
OK Hold tf on here. Rule states: "Prisoners are counted as followers - the highest-ranking person in control of the prisoner's fate is considered the Followee" ..which is Euron.
If we're going to go with "some sources reported" to be good enough for reassigning points, that means we're taking information from OUTSIDE the episode, which I JUST read wasn't going to be a thing (next episode trailers, specifically). Without any outside information, that character is still just a random. Even though he probably isn't, Euron is still his superior and has control of the hostages. It's not like Harrag & goons would be able to hide these extremely valuable and dangerous sand women from his boss who was topside on the same frigging boat they're in. The exchange wasn't directly shown, you're going to say! Does it really need to be, though? Let's break down the event sequence:
Reek & Yara having a nice awkward time > Euron shows up, spears their ship > Battle on SS Reek ensues, both boats entangled and mostly stationary > Euron wins battle on deck of ship while sand snakes below deck are accosted > Fast forward to dead bodies on elaborate display > Final shot of formation of ships sailing away from Reek. He's Reek again, by the way.
So, what this tells us is, unless "Harrag" and the multiple dudes restraining the very unwilling sand ladies can somehow defy the laws of physics, Euron now knows what gifts he's bringing Cersei. There are certain assumptions that are not enough to go on (like the argument around here about Jaime convincing Tarly), but this is no logical leap. They're Euron's prisoners.
And, if we do really want to take outside assumptions into consideration, here's what that very wiki article states regarding the episode: "He assists Euron in the Siege of the Targaryen Fleet. He captures Ellaria Sand and her daughter, Tyene as a gift for Euron to give to Cersei Lannister. When Ellaria pleads for a quick death, he refuses without any demur, proceeding to take her and her daughter to Euron's ship." Sounds pretty subordinate to me! -theripleymanor
alicehanners, craigdietz20, TwistPickle, csepulveda2885, 3 others like this -
Damn, don't really have anything to add. I was on the fence about this one but you can't deny that according to the rules, Euron would get the points. -alicehanners
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First off the other post that your are referring to is about a trailer from a FUTURE episode. There is no reason why we cant use outside sources to determine which characters were in each episode. The same was just done to determine if Conner McGreggor was in the episode or not, without any protest.
I do have to agree that the rules do state that the highest ranking person gets points for the prisoners. I think that its a sound argument that regardless if it was Harrag or not who physically captured the prisoners first, the points should go to Euron because he was the one commanding Harrag.
However the real argument here lies in speculation. In this episode there is no proof that Harrag and the sands actually made it onto the boat with Euron. Perhaps they got left behind below deck and now they are technically Harrag's prisoners since Euron left. Or maybe since this is Game of Thrones, Harrag decided to steal the prisoners to sell to someone else behind Euron's back. Since there is no definitive answer to whether the Harrag and the Sands actually made it onto Euron's ship at the end, we cant give points to Euron until next episode.
Honestly I'm a bit torn on which way the points should really go. I do think its a pretty big stretch to believe the scenarios I described in the latter part of this comment. But crazier things have happened on Game of Thrones, much crazier. -ssantise
nyan likes this -
Andrew you tryhard -richsd61
theripleymanor likes this -
See, you call it speculation, but I say that the showing of the passage of time necessitates Euron finding out. Who's Harrag going to sell them to? A dolphin? Last we saw all these characters, they were on the same boat. A boat being plundered because, y'know, pirates are into that sort of thing. I didn't see Euron leave. You might even say that last we saw him, he was still commandeering it.
I find the most unlikely scenario to be that ANYTHING got left behind on that boat, as that's the one the important people were on. How did Euron know that, anyway? Probably a design that shows it's the most important boat? Anyway, nobody is going to be smuggling the sand chicks out of anywhere unless these are magical teleporting pirates. Euron owns ALL the ships now, everything on them, and effectively every person on them. Harrag knows what he's doing. He didn't kill Ellaria likely because he has explicit orders to capture her. It would mean his life if he failed that.
We already know what's happening. Good directors (which this show has) don't belabor the audience with fatty bits of exposition like what is often thought of as necessary around here. It's obvious that the showrunners just had Euron capture the woman (and, even better, HER daughter) who killed Cersei's innocent daughter. They're the gift. This isn't an M. Night Shyamalan movie, it's not exactly hard for me to say I guarantee this is exactly what happened. I bet you a dollar. -theripleymanor
alicehanners likes this -
@theripleymanor, I'm going to respond to each of your points in order:
First, who would Harrag sell the sands to:
The fact that Cersei wants Ellaria, makes her valuable to anyone in power especially someone like Olennea, who would love to buy them and would have the money and power to have helped Harrag behind the scenes to pull this off.
Second, There's no way they got left behind or escaped:
A large scale sea battle like this has tons of shit going on everywhere. They could have easily slipped away while Euron was doing his whole epic Yara and Theon scene. I mean reek litterally escapes from the very same battle just by jumping into the water, is it really that hard to believe that Harrag and the sands couldn't have just jumped off the boat too?
Third, This isn't a M. Night Shyamalan movie, the directors are too Good to do something like this:
This wouldn't be the first time that we were tricked by the writers into believing one thing at the end of the episode to only find out in later episode is not what we all thought. in s2e7 'a man without honor' The last scene is Theon presenting two burnt bodies to Winterfell who he says is Bran and Rickon stark. we don't find out till later episodes it wasn't bran and Rickon and that Theon was lying. Are you telling me you knew before the next episode that it wasn't bran and Rickon hanging from winterfell? Or how about s4e10 'The Children' when Arya finds the Hound on the side of a mountain being picked apart by crows and then leaves him to die. We all thought for sure the Hound was dead then, unless of course you just assumed the writers were trying to pull a fast one on us, just like they could be potentially doing now. The point is the Game of Thrones loves to do this shit, there's no reason why they couldn't do it again.
In all honesty I do expect Harrag to just hand over the sands to Euron in the next episode, just like everyone else, but at the same time we all thought Theon burned the Stark boys. For this reason I still contend that Harrag deserves the points this episode and if and when they get transferred to Euron next episode, he will get his points then. -ssantise
hkeseyan likes this -
Under Political Wins Paragraph 'Prisoners can be transferred into the custody of others, which is a New Follower event'.
In the Red Wedding we assumed Roose Bolton was a Stark ally till he wasnt. We assumed Theon burned Bran and Rickon but later episodes revealed that was not the case. Harrag is an iron born sailor in the midst of a civil war of Greyjoys.For all we know he is a Yara loyalist. Or maybe he wants to sell the sands , almost any person in power could use the sands to their advantage. If we see Euron with the sands then yes we can assume Harrag transfered him off, until that happens however we simply dont know. -hindsight44
hkeseyan likes this -
If we are saying Harrag gets points because he's potentially going to betray Euron, then he needs to get betrayal points. Except that's stupid, because there is absolutely zero evidence he betrayed him. Absent that evidence, Harrag is still Eyron's loyal follower and thus the points go to Euron. This seems open and shut based on the rules. What other kind of wild speculation do you want to consider? For all we know, Harrag raped and killed them before they got to Euron, so that's death points. Maybe he let them go. No points. Maybe they killed him.
Main point: We saw one of Euron's minions capture them. Euron gets the points. Keep it simple, y'all. -alicehanners
alexanderdropkin and nyan like this -
There is precedent for the middleman who is sent to acquire or transport a prisoner to receive points for gaining a prisoner:
Lancel in S5 for the High Sparrow
http://fantasora.com/game/1/season/6/char/26
Brienne escorting Jaime to KL for Catelyn
http://fantasora.com/event/1077
Lord of Bones taking Jon to Mance Rayder
http://fantasora.com/event/1106
not sure how many other such examples there are of this but that's what I find off the top of my head
Kills are counted for the named character doing the work and not to their superior who orders it (especially this season now that commanded kills don't even count). I don't think it's too crazy to give points to someone for capturing a prisoner even if it is in the process of handing it over to someone else, especially since it has been scored before
Harrag, while unlikely to betray Euron, has some sort of control over the situation, he denies them a swift death when Ellaria asks for it. He also puts in work in capturing the prisoners, including fighting Tyene as she resists and he punches her out (+1 for minor injury too?) -hkeseyan
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Well, it appears that everything I said happened did indeed actually happen. The precedents cited don't really fit here, since in this situation everyone was literally on the same vessel, within maybe 100 feet of each other. There's no journey involved. There's no explicit transaction. He's just a pirate with orders he's carrying out. Harrag is still barely even a character right now, and who knows if he even will be relevant going forward? Did he even have a line? A credit? He obviously had no presence in episode 3, so what's the point of watering down the points that would go to Euron? It all just seems needlessly pedantic to me.
You can suggest what "Harrag" might have done all you want (like jumping off the ship with bound prisoners? Really? Is that where he's meeting up with the dolphin slavers?) but the reality is that the logistics of the situation make anything other than what actually happened completely impossible. Most of this part of the argument was just gravy anyway. All I should really have to say is: Prisoners taken. Euron's minion. Euron's prisoners.
As far as twists go, this was obviously not meant to be one. If you watch film critically and are aware of patterns in media, this is about as straightforward as it gets. And yes, a few of the "twists" in this show were absolutely predictable. Well written it is, shocking it can be, difficult to follow it is not. -theripleymanor
alicehanners likes this -
OK so the guy that picks up Theon in episode 3 looks more like Brendan Cowell than the guy in episode 2.... what do you guys think? If the guy in episode 2 isn't Brendan Cowell, then my apologies for jumping to conclusions -hkeseyan
jake.kmiech and theripleymanor like this -
Whew! This one blew up while I was away, and I'm a little torn about what to do. For all the examples that @hkeseyan brings up (and thanks for that, I don't know how you're finding all these aside from just straight memory, as I don't have any of the event searching ready yet!), they've touched on cases where the intermediary prisoner-takers do seem to have independent control over the prisoners.
With the Lord of Bones, he captures Qhorin and Jon and there's a long march to Mance's camp. And as he states explicitly, he could have them executed if he wanted to, so he's very much in control of them independent of Mance.
Brienne I think is a clear case where she controls Jaime's fortunes, just with a general mission from Catelyn Stark.
Lancel taking Loras in S5 is the closest to this one. He is definitely in command of these troops, but there's not much sense that he has independent authority (could he have decided to execute Loras then and there, without the High Sparrow's permission? probably not). And then Loras pretty much shows up in the High Sparrow's custody right after.
I think Ellaria/Tyene closely match the Loras scenario, and arguably the Loras prisoner should've just been counted directly for the High Sparrow (we didn't have the same level of lively debates back then). Similar to the argument about "named kill" points, the fact that we are debating the existence of the character and would be easily counting the prisoners for Euron if "Harrag" didn't exist as a draftable character also point strongly to Harrag being an inconsequential middleman.
The possibility for shocking twists, and speculating on scenarios for them, is a separate but general scoring issue (and I'm sure we'll debate it a bit for S7E3!). It can go a lot of ways, especially because the line between one viewer's reasonable guess is another viewer's pure speculation is another viewer's "that's a completely batshit conspiracy theory".
I think there are decent arguments here and I wish I was around earlier this week to chime in, but since E3 has premiered and we're moving on to scoring for that, I'll make a gut decision (with a bit of hindsight) that Harrag was just a lackey and never had independent authority over the Sands as prisoners. But, feel free to continue discussing in this thread! -nyan
hkeseyan likes this -
@nyan let's just say I have some free time on my hands at work and am obsessed with both fantasy sports and Game of Thrones... -hkeseyan
nyan likes this
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