55:15
(+10)
Bran Stark:
While warged in, Bran forces Hodor to hold the Door against the horde of wights as he and Meera make their escape, sacrificing him in the process.
(Kill of Named Character)
submitted by nyan (approved!)
moonbaseu92, wpearsal, callmemb16, cmwalken15, 2 others like this
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WOAH. yea your right IMO -cmwalken15
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Only question I had for this - at the end is Bran still warged into Hodor, forcing him to hold the door? Or is Hodor still holding it out of his own loyalty? -nyan
Lem Lemoncake and alicehanners like this -
I watched the scene a few times, and I still can't decide which of three is happening.
i. Bran was Warging into weirwood.net and Hodor simultaneously in two separate parallel Wargs (new ability!)
2. Bran was Warging into Hordor within the weirwood.net session as a nested Warging (new ability!)
3. Bran briefly Warged into Hodor to help get them going, and then went back to the flashback, and his sensory input is what caused the temporal feedback loop that Hodorified Hodor.
Personally, I'm leaning toward the first two over the third, by virtue of Occam's Razor. -dopeghoti
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I also thought that Bran only warged into Hodor for a short time, to get him going.. that multiwarg wouldn't really make a lot of sense.. but then again BRAN IS THE MOST WARGFUL WARG OF ALL WARGS WHO HAVE EVER WARGED! -Lem Lemoncake
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Lots of discussion on reddit for this exact topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4kolta/spoilers_main_that_scene_was_much_darker_than_i/ -nyan
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Going with the darker interpretation. Even if Hodor flashes back to his real self in the final moments, Bran will still have thrown him to the wolves, so to speak. -nyan
Lem Lemoncake and wpearsal like this -
crap should this be betrayal points too? -nyan
wpearsal and sanford like this -
Hmm... then every intentional warging into an unwilling target could be considered betrayal.. or convincing argument, or whatever :D -Lem Lemoncake
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We don't actually see Hodor die, do we? -tbaum9842
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Also, if who/what you're warging into dies, don't you die as well (via the Wildlings discussion a while back)? -tbaum9842
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Contest. Bran didn't kill Hodor, the wights did. Bran caused his death, sure, but that's maybe betrayal points, not a kill point. -bookworm13457
as38, Ser Vincent, Lem Lemoncake, sanford, 3 others like this -
agree with bookworm, if bran gets points for warging into Hodor and putting him in a position to be killed then when Mance Rayder was killed by Jon Snow then Stannis or Melisandre should've got rewarded those points for putting Mance in that position -as38
Ser Vincent likes this -
I could probably think of better comparisons but that was the first one that came to me -as38
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I think it's more analogous to when Ramsay feeds someone to his dogs, which he gets points for. -nsimmonds
nyan likes this -
@Lem Warging into an unwilling target and making them do something against their own interest is a betrayal, I would think. Especially with little to indicate that Hodor was making a willing sacrifice?
bookworm/as38 you both bring up an interesting point. Mance Rayder was counted as a kill steal for Jon Snow, and Melisandre/Mance got no points. But it seems forcing someone into a position of inevitable death ought to be counted usually - e.g. if you were to push someone in front of a speeding train, that's your kill, even if it's the train doing the killing at the end. -nyan
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In the case of the train, though, the train isn't actively trying to kill you. What would the scoring look like if, for example, 3 parties were fighting. Person A pushes Person B into Person C's sword. Does A or C get the kill? C was trying to kill B, but so was A. -bookworm13457
nyan likes this -
+1 bookworm
@tbaum: If I understood that correctly, Bran inception-wargs the young Hodor who didn't die.. but then it's weird that Wargdream-Bran doesn't have wargey eyes. I guess, I still don't get the entire scene :D
@nyan: Alright. What I was actually aiming there is, that there are probably only very few instances of warging that happen with consent of the target - which again leads to the warg doing things with and to the warged body that the warged one does not want :/
-Lem Lemoncake
nyan likes this -
@Lem usually the warg examples we've seen are neutral or positive for the wargee, e.g. Bran warging into Hodor to mutually fight their way out of danger. Can you think of other cases where the warg's actions were directly against the interests of the wargee? -nyan
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@bookworm very good examples you're bringing up. I can imagine multiple opinions on such a scene - do you judge the intent of the sword-holder and the person-pusher? Or maybe intent shouldn't matter since accidental kills are a thing, and it's literally who holds the sword (but that brings us back to the train argument).
@nsimmonds brings up Ramsay and his dogs, which seems like a clear case of "forcing someone into a situation of inevitable death" without literally killing them yourself. Thoughts on how that situation differentiates from this one? -nyan
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I don't think, Bran intended for Hodor to die (and we still don't even know if Hodor died while being warged at all).. we don't even know if Bran realized what he was doing as he was still in warg-mode. This is entirely different from Ramsay's dog, which is more like a planned assassination - carried out by his dogs. For which actually his dogs should get the points since it is somewhat of a commanded kill... meh :D
About the other warg-related topic: Bran and Summer are probably special because they have this relationship, but still, I don't think that Summer enjoys being intruded by Bran and having his body and senses controlled by Bran for his enjoyment. Maybe I'm thinking too much in terms of the books here, but the process of getting into a wargee always seems like a struggle with and submission of the wargee.
But yeah.. I somehow feel that I've followed this thought too far into hypothetical territories. I'm just not sure if Hodor's death should count as a kill or betrayal for Bran. I find the possibility that Bran did it intentionally and knew what he was doing very exciting, but I don't believe it to be more likely that way than the other. -Lem Lemoncake
as38 and nyan like this -
@nyan - I think it has to go to whoever is holding the sword, otherwise you open up a can of worms about where to put the points when somebody forces someone into a situation of inevitable death and judging intent. With Ramsay he commands the dogs and it's pretty clear that they're his followers. The kill rules are well set up to handle that (Kills - VI). The difference with Bran is that he doesn't command the wight walkers.
I'd say maybe give the kill to White Walker (King) under the commanded kill rule (though it's questionable whether or not the kill required no skill) and give the betrayal points to Bran. -bookworm13457
nyan likes this -
@Lem Bran only half-consciously controlling the Hodors sounds like a good argument for excluding it as a betrayal. It's ambiguous even to what extent Bran is aware of how he is controlling things (both in past vision and real world), and thus it's hard to say he betrayed anyone in his subconscious (intent should matter for betrayals, else klutzy chars like Podrick would be "betraying" friends with their screwups all the time). -nyan
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Really good perspectives you both brought up about the kills. I think bookworm is right that we should try to exclude intent - can of worms as you say, and accidental kills should definitely be possible.
Thinking through this, it does feel like there should be some criteria that allows for putting someone into a situation where they'll definitely be killed. Scar flinging Mufasa down to the stampeding buffalo in Long King comes to mind - no control over the actual killers there, but the death doesn't happen without Scar's direct action. From a pedantic perspective this could apply to Balon's death as well - even if it's the ocean that drowned him, it was Euron's throw that put him into that situation (and scorekeeping is all about pedantry =P).
I think we can expand on kills commanded here and ultimately include those under a subset of "inevitable death situation" rules:
I. The killer forces the victim into the situation against their will
II. The situation leads to *inevitable* death
II.I. The entity or force that directly kills the victim needs no skill or decision-making to make the kill, aside from following the commands of the killer.
III. The directly killer still gets rewarded duplicate kill points, if applicable.
What that means for the scenarios we've talked about:
1. Executions like Ned's and Fat Walda's (previously covered by Commanded Kills) are included, since the victims are imprisoned (forced into situation), and could do nothing to avoid death (inevitable). This should be the same whether it was a human killer (Ilyn Payne), controlled animals (Ramsay's hounds), as neither needed skill or decision-making (aside from following commands).
2. Scar throwing Mufasa into a canyon of stampeding buffalo is also included. Even without directly controlling the physical killers, the inevitability and lack of skill/decision-making is the same. Imagine if Ramsay throws Fat Walda into a pit of snakes instead.
3. Pushing the victim into a sword held by someone else would be a more nuanced case. As mentioned above, we don't want to get into judging the intent of the indirect killer here:
3a. The victim is shoved toward the sword-holder, who happens to have his sword positioned in a way that impales the victim. Included for the person-pusher, as no skill/decision or even actions were taken by the sword-holder. This would be the same as if the sword-holder was instead a jagged rock.
3b. The victim is shoved in the direction of the sword-holder, who must aim and position his weapon precisely to impale the victim. This would be excluded for the person-pusher, as it required skill/decision-making on the part of the sword-holder.
4. Most "noble suicides" are excluded by criteria I, because the victim willingly put themselves in it (still counted if they are physically killed by their own action, like Leaf's hand grenade).
5. In all above scenarios, the direct killer (Ilyn, Ramsay's hound, sword-holder) still gets credit. -nyan
dopeghoti likes this -
I think that's definitely a fair way to approach it -bookworm13457
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