33:54
(+5)
Samwell Tarly:
Samwell plies off the infected Greyscale tissue from Jorah's chest, with all the gentleness of a spoon digging through hot pie.
(Major Injury of Named Character)
alicehanners, jgiuliano, hindsight44, alexanderdropkin, 3 others like this
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Injury with intent to heal really counts? -wdgannon42
nyan and talindsey like this -
i call bullshit -carter5719
wsleppy and talindsey like this -
Amputations are meant to heal, but are still major injuries. Considering the amount of scar tissue covering Jorah Sam would have to scrape away, I think this definitely can be both an injury and a healing attempt -cfitzgerald
wsleppy, hindsight44, nyan like this -
No, that is retarded -wsleppy
xdwxrd and talindsey like this -
Full support of this. It's definitely a major injury. -alicehanners
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Undo this madness! -rob.co.graham
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No matter the reasoning if you lose over 30 percent of your skin that is a major injury. -hindsight44
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Is there precedent for amputations? That would be compelling. -jedjackoway
nyan likes this -
Since when does a medical procedure with the intent of healing a character count as a major injury. Considering that Jorah's current condition will lead to a slow painful death, if anything i would say this is a minor injury comparatively -ssantise
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How did we score Aeron drowning Euron? -alexanderdropkin
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He is doing an experimental treatment that is causing a lot of pain/injury. It definitely counts. He is mauling the shit out of him. -taylorreneegoodrich
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He is doing an experimental treatment that is causing a lot of pain/injury. It definitely counts. He is mauling the shit out of him. -taylorreneegoodrich
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I agree with this, it's clear Jorah is in intense pain regardless of the intent it is still a major injury -easson27
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It's not really an injury is it? He's already injured, he's causing him pain, but not 'injuring' him. -xdwxrd
ssantise likes this -
Talisa received points for amputating the soldier, who was already injured - http://fantasora.com/event/892
Injury is harm or damage, and the rules clearly cite amputation as earning points in the injury category. Sam is removing what like a third of Jorah's skin, the largest human organ? He's causing him excruciating pain and expelling massive amounts of bodily fluids, the procedure is highly akin to amputation. The rulebook isn't going to write out every specific procedure that counts, the point is understood, amputations and similar medical procedures that cause incredible pain and removal of body parts count for points. -hkeseyan
jedjackoway, phillyt1977, alicehanners like this -
It definitely does not say anything about medical procedures in the rulebook. An amputation made maliciously during battle is far different then one made by doctor. If it wasn't you would see doctors being thrown in jail for performing their jobs.
The previous event that your citing is from the second season. The scoring rubric has changed pretty dramatically since 5 seasons ago. Also an amputation is far different from removing dead skin.
The skin that Samwell cuts off is already dead and decaying, it is integral to Jorah's recovery and life to have it removed. If Samwell refused to do the surgery would you then say that Samwell caused a major injury for allowing this degenerative disease to even further harm Jorah?
Most importantly however, hkeseyan, you cite the rule book about points earned for amputation. Here is the direct quote from the rulebook:
"I. Permanent injuries are counted as half kills. Permanent injuries are those that cannot ever be fully recovered from (short of magic or deus ex machina)
I. Precedents for the "permanent" injuries
I. Amputated body parts: Greywind biting off Greatjon Umber's fingers (S1E8) ..."
The rule that you are citing clearly states that the injury only counts if it can never be recovered from. The only reason why this procedure is even being performed is so that Jorah can recover from grayscale. Unlike an amputated limb humans have the ability to regrow skin.
-ssantise
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'Amputation is the surgical removal of all or part of a limb or extremity such as an arm, leg, foot, hand, toe, or finger' thats the definiton according to Web Md.
The skin is not considered an extremity or a limb its an organ. By these standards popping a bad zit would also be considered amputation. Also how is having your Greyscale removed an injury. Greyscale is the injury!!!!!!! -hindsight44
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The amputation Talisa performed was not made maliciously, it was a medical procedure, there is precedent for receiving points for it, I don't know if the rules were changed since then or not. I don't think this site was up 5 seasons ago, I think Season 2 was scored as a rewatch season last year, correct me if I am wrong.
It doesn't matter that the skin is dead and decaying, that is exactly why body parts are amputated by doctors. Removing Greyscale is removing a disease like removing Gangreen or removing a cancerous tumor or removing a limb affected by diabetes. That does not mean that the act of removing these causes injury. Would you argue that someone undergoing chemo is not injured, is not at full strength, is not going through pain? Or the same for someone having their skin flayed, or limb removed?
If the Boltons were to flay someone alive they would surely receive points for it. Sure, that would probably be done maliciously, but as recently as last year (fact check that if you can) points were awards for a medical procedure done in good faith that caussed a major injury.
You can cite the official definition from webmd but all that does is argue semantics for a rulebook that is not that strictly defined to cover all of the specific events that encompass the intent of the rule. The rulebook says amputated body parts, the skin is a body part, it is an organ, why do we have to be so literal with the rules when the rules were not written with every specific scenario in mind? If the Boltons flayed someone without killing them (I believe points aren't given for causing injury if that character kills them the same scene), you bet they'd get points for a major injury, and we already have precedent for major injury caused with an intent to heal and improve a condition. -hkeseyan
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First, When you cite Talisa as your precedent you are comparing apples to oranges. The rulebook clearly states that in order to be awarded points for the injury then the injury must be one that "cannot ever be fully recovered from". No one will ever regrow a leg not even Jamie could regrow his hand. However Jorah will recover from this treatment and will in fact be better off then he started. If in a later episode we find out that Jorah does not recover or is horribly maimed beyond the damage that the greyscale had done, although i would still disagree i could then understand giving points during that episode.
Secondly, the rulebook used by this league states that "This rulebook is the authority on event definitions" it does not say use these rules when you see fit otherwise just score the events however you feel at the time. The rulebook is definitive and the final decision in what gets points and what doesn't, only to be overridden by Nathan himself. Without having a rulebook none of us would have any basis to formulate our arguments and every single proposed event would be up to subjectivity of whoever feels like debating at that time, this would be chaos. If you would like there to be an amendment made to the rulebook to change the description of what injuries should or should not get points then I think that's a completely different debate and probably one that should have been had before the season started.
According to the rulebook as it is currently written, this medical procedure is not the same as amputation because unlike an amputated limb, Jorah is expected to recover from this procedure. -ssantise
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Good debate from everyone, I hadn't actually anticipated this to be that controversial =]. One of the important distinctions that was keyed on, and generally doesn't apply for this scoring category is intent - people have been accidentally killed, mercy killed, and suicided, and they've all counted. So if peeling off skin would've scored in a battle situation, then Sam will get the score here, no matter what his intentions were.
To help clarify for the future, I've added that explicitly into the rulebook. -nyan
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Regardless of intent, there is an distinction between when the boltons flayed someone and when samwell scraped the grayscale off. When flaying someone your a removing the skin entirely all the way down to the muscle, this is a unrecoverable injury, the human body is not able regrow anything if the skin is completely removed. This is far different from the procedure Samwell is administering. Samwell is only removing the top most outerlayer of the skin which we can clearly see has more layers of skin below and even a protective layer of puss between the two. Jorah will be able to regrow these outer layers of skin.
For this reason I still contend that this injury (unlike someone who is flayed) is recoverable and therefore does not fit the criteria outlined within the rulebook to count as points towards a permanent injury. -ssantise
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Maybe going forward there she be a rule addition for saving someones life. Its a point worthy action and would help clarify these types of situations. -hindsight44
nyan likes this -
I see what you're saying @ssantise. I don't think we as viewers know enough about the procedure to say for sure how deep Sam is going, but even if you're not going all the way to the muscle, removing all the surface skin and making it regrow is still severe and it doesn't come back like normal (burn victims need skin grafts and those are far from perfect, even though all the damage later is at the surface). The amputations are the extreme case, but a permanent disfigurement would also count (e.g. Tyrion's nose).
@hindsight44 that's not a bad idea, I've considered a few for all those saved-at-the-last-minute scenes. Where do you think that goes, category-wise? Politics? -nyan
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I do admit that Jorah will most likely have some substantial scars from the procedure. I interpreted recovery as a functional recovery where cosmetic differences were not important. But if scar like the one Tyrion received counts as unrecoverable injury then this must as well.
I do feel this blanket interpretation that anything that leaves a scar is a unrecoverable injury is a bit ridiculous, but the rules are the rules. This also opens a can of worms on how big of a scar counts.
Just for the sake of being a dick:
Following the same logic behind scars, if we were to see a character tattoo another character would we consider it a permanent injury, worthy of half the points of a kill, because its painful procedure and it leaves a unrecoverable mark on the skin? -ssantise
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To be clear, the criteria is definitely not "leaves a scar" and that would be way too low of a threshold for major injuries. I was just pointing to burn-victim scarring as an example of a major skin injury, that you don't fully recover from.
Tatoo is an interesting thought experiment, though! Especially if the artist was botching it and doing it very painfully. -nyan
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You referenced Tyrion's scar which is tiny compared to that of a burn victim. So even if we made the criteria: Tyrion's scar or larger, I think we would still see quite a few injuries that might have otherwise been considered minor now being considered major.
Also real life burn victims don't have access to the medical ointments that Samwell is applying to Jorah, for all we know Jorah could come out of this looking like nothing happened. And I can assure you if that's the case I will definitely be arguing for these points to be removed retroactively. -ssantise
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Is anyone else having trouble with trades mine won't allow accept ion, rejection, or counter
-talindsey
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@ssantise admittedly they've minimized Tyrion's scar in subsequent seasons. If you recall back to S2 they made a big thing about having bandaged up his entire face and was worried that Shae wouldn't love him anymore. I do think that if Tyrion recovers from the battle, has a cosmetic scar but they don't really make a big thing about it, it wouldn't be a major injury. -nyan
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