I would like to contest both Tyrion and Varys BROKERED A DEAL. As we established last week, deals are not brokered till terms are set or some agreeement is met. In S6 all we know is Varys meets with tyrells/martells, his only line is 'fire and blood'. In episode 2 Dany thanks Varys for bringing her these allies.
They never actually agree to anything and become Danys followers until Tyrion explains the battleplan.
Id say Tyrion and Varys tag teamed this one but if anyone deserves points its Varys because Tyrion needed some convincing from Varys when originally left for Merren in s6.'We need allies in Westeroes' conversation at the dock.
They never actually agree to anything and become Danys followers until Tyrion explains the battleplan.
Id say Tyrion and Varys tag teamed this one but if anyone deserves points its Varys because Tyrion needed some convincing from Varys when originally left for Merren in s6.'We need allies in Westeroes' conversation at the dock.
submitted by hindsight44 (rejected)
alicehanners, kevinpetsky, tommyjames81, ssantise, 2 others like this
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Bahaha I knew this would come back to bite me. But fair enough, I think there's some debate to be had.
Agreed that no deal has been made here, so perhaps "deals brokered" is premature. The decision that was made was whether to make a proposal to Jon Snow at all - basically the same as Cersei's executive decision points to meet with Euron last episode. Tyrion got those points, and I'd consider switching Melisandre's to the same convincing argument category.
For Varys, I think they were for all intents and purposes allies by S6E10. Daenerys and her armies are sailing on their ships for instance. -nyan
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Last scene of dany is s6 is with her advisors(including Varys) and the ironborn. No sign of Martells or Tyrells anywhere. That being said it was safe to assume a deal had been brokered. Emphasis on the word assume.
All we know that happened for sure in s6 with Varys is negotiations took place. There is no dialogue at all of what was actually said. In s7 episode 2 Dany had to ask if the parites in question would follow her which shiws they have not yet given any sign agreement or alleigance until that point.
Compare that to last week where we actually got to witness the dialogue of the negotiation between Cersei and Euron and received more evidence than Varys situation with tyrells/dornish that an alliance has formed. Without refrencing episode 2 Euron left KL to win Cerseis favor. Cersei was given no points because the arrangement in question did not have any real terms set. Yet Varys got points for walking into a room and saying Fire and Blood.
The way i see it its one or the other. Either you have to wait until terms are met and a full agreement happens or you can take the heavy implication that these scenes have and consider them a deal brokered on the spot. If you say there were no terms met with Cersei thats fine but then there no terms met with Varys in s6. If you say obviously Varys brokered a deal through implication thats fine but then so did Cersei. Euron left KL saying he would bring her a gift , which is alot more implication than Varys saying Fire and Blood and the scene ending. -hindsight44
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Martell and Tyrell sails are clearly visible in Dany's fleet in the last scene of last season. -hkeseyan
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Where? there are orange flags but no truly discernable sigil for Martell(which is a dead house at this time btw). Remember Dany took an entire fleet of slave ships, some of which had orange sails. Also are you suggesting the Elaria sailed her army to Meereen only to sail it back to Dorne and then have ironborn pick them up? -hindsight44
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Hypothetically speaking lets say youre right what were the terms of the agreement? Based on past events no deal is brokered until terms of an agreement are made. you cant argue terms were made off camera either because in episode 2 we clearly see the deal.being struck and them turning into followers. -hindsight44
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjc3RJpyZVA
0:53 orange sails with red circular sigils that resemble a sun
0:58 green sails with a lighter color circular sigil that resembles the Tyrell flower
this scene occurs after Varys speaks to the Martells and Tyrells, and we see Varys is back with Dany. Dany also has a gigantic army and it's not a stretch to think that she needs more ships from the Martells and Tyrells than the ones stolen by the Ironborn which also contain the Ironborn on them -hkeseyan
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I definitley see the resemblence with Martells. But once again a 'resemblence' is not stone cold fact. And if a resemblence of flag is enough even though it means the Dornish armies movement make no sense, id say Euron telling Cersei he wants to marry her so he will go bring her a gift to win her trust is equally as ironclad the resemblence of a few flags even though we know Dany just conquered a foreign fleet.
Answer me this why does Dany have to say in ep2 'Do i have your support?' -hindsight44
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On this website, Daenerys received credit last season for gaining Tyrell and Martell support:
http://fantasora.com/event/3024
She asks if she has their support in her new plan to send the Tyrells and Martells to take Kings Landing, and she has to ask again because they are showing doubt. However, she initially had their support as a result of Varys's brokering when they sent their ships over to transport her army last season. -hkeseyan
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If you swear your alleigance to a king/queen they dont ask you for support, youve already given it to them.
Look the point i tried to make before is if your of the belief that Varys brokered a deal in s6 that is fine but then Cersei has brokered a deal in episode 1. I see both sides of the argument its just i believe these two events contradict each other and i think it should be remedied. So feel free to think Varys brokered a deal it makes sense. Its heavily implied an agreement was reached. Justt understand there is more evidence of Cersei Brokering a deal than Varys. Im sorry but seeing sails that resemble Martells sails on the other side of the world is not enough to confirm a deal brokered when comparing it to Cerseis situation which didnt get points. -hindsight44
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Sorry I missed your point about comparing this to Cersei brokering a deal. I don't think Cersei brokered a deal last week, since she never agreed to Euron's terms for marriage. Believe me, I want that deal to be brokered because I have Euron on my team.
I think next week when Euron returns with the gift(s), and if Cersei accepts his hand in marriage, maybe they can get points for brokering a deal then. -hkeseyan
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@hindsight44 basically the difference is that Dany got some evidence of an agreement in S6 (she started sailing with the Tyrell and Dornish ships), so we were able to give her points, but there has been nothing concrete between the Lannisters and Greyjoys (we also saw the meeting itself, so we know they didn't agree). So I don't think there's a contradiction. As @hkeseyan mentions, when Euron comes back with Ellaria and they have some kind of arrangement, I think everyone will get their due points. -nyan
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Cersei got some evidence of an agreement as well. -hindsight44
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I know this has nothing to do with the above thread, but how did randyll Tarley not get points for insults he said " we have a good name. We don';t invitwe people to dinner the slit their throats., and also referred to kingslaying." I don't even have him, but this scoring is botched. -talindsey
nyan likes this -
I think were walking on a tight rope of subjectivity here. How is it fair to claim that Euron sailing all the way to kings landing to meet with Cersei then saying "I will go win your trust" is not enough evidence to confirm a deal, while at the same time saying that partially unclear images of flags on a ship sailing within Daenerys armada is enough evidence to confirm a deal for Varys.
If we're going to allow "some" or partial evidence as confirmation of a deal in one hand but in the other require concrete proof this seems unfair. If we are going to allow partial evidence as confirmation it should either be ubiquitous or not allowed at all. -ssantise
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I think it's the other way around. We got explicit evidence that Cersei did not agree to a deal with Euron in the scene. If we hadn't seen the Cersei-Euron negotiation at all, and the E2 battle happened with a couple of token Lannister soldiers in the fray, we'd be awarding Cersei/Euron points. -nyan
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Cersei refused his first offer that doesnt mean the negotiations didnt bear any fruit.
What in question is was there ' some evidence' that a deal has been made because that justified Varys getting points.
Requiring 'some evidence' now means you dont need a full agreement all you need really is a piece of information that pushes you in that direction. Euron saying 'i will go bring you a gift to gain yout trust.' is technically 'some evidence' a deal was made.
Once again im not arguing for either side im jjst trying to point out what i believe a contradiction in the rule book. Personally i dont think 'some evidence' is enough to confirn a deal especially when two episodss later the parties in question officaly give their support. -hindsight44
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I see it sort of as tiers. If there's explicit evidence, we'll always go with that. But if not, we'll take circumstantial evidence and run with it (unless there's contradictory circumstantial evidence).
For Varys we got the circumstantial fleet sailing with Daenerys. And nothing has come along to disprove their alliance, so the points worked.
For Cersei we got the meeting that explicitly showed that nothing was agreed, and Euron vowed to come back with a better offer (which is not a deal, but perhaps a continuation of the negotiation). Because we got that explicit evidence against, it wasn't counted, even if there would be later evidence that would otherwise be circumstantial. -nyan
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Closing this thread out - I think everyone has explained their points pretty well, and hopefully the explanation in the last comment about direct vs. circumstantial evidence gives a clear idea of which ones take precedence, so at least everyone can know how it will be scored even if it can't leave everyone happy. With the more formal alliance in E3, I think everyone will get the points they expected and that wraps this up. -nyan
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