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Melisandre:
submitted by ssantise (rejected)
nyan likes this
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Received points for this already last episode: http://fantasora.com/event/3170 -hkeseyan
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She shouldn't have gotten the points last week. No deal was brokered yet, merely a raven was sent. It wasn't until this week that deal of getting Jon and Dany to meet truly came to fruition. -ssantise
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Yeah, perhaps the previous score was better as a "convince", but it also brings up the question of whether she fully brokered a deal? She did nothing on the Jon Snow side of things, her only accomplishment was convincing Daenerys to send the letter, and she has had no role after that. -nyan
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Paraphrasing but she says something like 'I have brought fire and ice together, my job is done'. I think the deals been brokered when fire and ice actually meet. -hindsight44
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I don't think it matters either way if she had helped on Jon's side or not. Convincing Dany was clearly enough to get Jon to come to Dragonstone. -ssantise
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Related argument here with Tyrion this episode, about whether a character can stack their convincing with brokering deals: http://fantasora.com/event/3320
In terms of the timing for the scores, she definitely convinced Dany but had nothing to do with Jon, so if she had negotiated a "deal" it seems that deal was simply for Dany to send a letter, and that act was completed in E2. We wouldn't give her any credit for Dany and Jon negotiating the dragonglass, or later negotiating an alliance, right? Similarly I don't see giving Melisandre credit for Jon arriving to Dragonstone, since she did nothing to advance that half of things. -nyan
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I think she advanced that half of things by convincing Dany to send the letter. I contend that points shouldn't have been given out until this episode where we physically saw Jon at Dragonstone. -ssantise
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@ssantise I do agree with that assessment, in which case I think the E2 points should have really been considered a Convincing Argument to send the letter, since we didn't get to any confirmed deal. I've changed that now just to settle that argument.
The followup question then, is whether what Melisandre has done is enough to be considered a deal. Namely, she initiates things only on one side, and really just suggesting an idea at that. She doesn't have any role in the actual negotiations about dragonglass or alliances. -nyan
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Unless we count Jon arriving to meet Daenerys herself as a "deal" already. It feels a little weak, very much like Cersei meeting with Euron in E1 but not agreeing to anything. -nyan
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Well to be honest, I always felt Cersei just meeting with Euron was a deal within itself. For example if someone were to negotiate a sit down between two leaders of warring nations regardless of the outcome, just negotiating that sit down is a deal within itself. -ssantise
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@ssantise true, a sitdown between warring nations is an accomplishment, but I feel like there needs to be some small agreement for that to work, like a ceasefire during the meeting.
I'm also feeling that the "deals brokered" subcategory will require that the negotiator works with both sides of the table. Otherwise if it's just an advisor giving counsel on one half, the convince points are already covering it.
Fitting with the original idea, which was Varys getting some credit for a political agreement that nets points for the principal parties. Daenerys got a bunch of followers and army points out of the Tyrells and Dornish, the +3 deals brokered is basically a way to give Varys a cut of that. There were no points achieved by either Jon or Daenerys for simply meeting, thus no political accomplishment to give Melisandre a piece of. -nyan
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I would argue that Euron agreeing to go win Cerseis favor is at the very least a ceasefire. Also it could be considered eliminating a political rival. Euron promised the Iron Throne to his iron born and declared himself king of one of the crowns kingdoms. By agreeing to win her favor Euron no longer is competing with Cersei for the same political authority (as per the rules.) -hindsight44
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