75:58
(+180)
Arya Stark:
90 wights fall in the Godswood after Arya kill the Night King keeping them animated.
(Kill of Unnamed Character)
submitted by nyan (approved!)
msomers13, Jamiemurraytait, ashot.sargsian, ronsuij, 25 others like this
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Wanted to open this up for debate early - does Arya get an auto-score for the Wight Walkers, Viserion, and all the individual wights of the Wight Army after she gets the one-hit kill on the Night King? -nyan
altomarj, alih1991, aentwisle, sombertone, 3 others like this -
I think so. But since the wight army is draftable, wouldn't that count as a single named kill? Ditto giants. -alicehanners
harrington.129, CNuss, ryanmcfarlane09, prestonpalecek, 6 others like this -
I think she should definitely get points for this, however I don't feel named character points is enough for the 100,000 kill stab. I might be biased as an Arya fan but do genuinely feel this kill deserves some serious weight -Jamiemurraytait
kapetruzzelli, meagan.purcell, Jamiemurraytait, elgrondy31, 9 others like this -
I guess the argument would be that every other character gets a kill for every wight that they kill, rather than points for injuring a named character and Arya has killed them all -Jamiemurraytait
pjh09f and sperlingjason like this -
Seems pretty bs if other characters get points for every wight kill, even though they get resurrected by NK, while arya doesn’t get credit for pe
rmakilling NK, all WWs, all wights, and dragon -bm.315.kelly
Jamiemurraytait, abova, alih1991, hallock.rachel, 10 others like this -
I think she has to. They've all died and it was her stab that did it. Other characters should get points for the characters they killed (even if resurrected, since they were indeed dead), but the mass wipeout is certainly due to Arya's stab and should be scored as such. -cwpeters42
Jamiemurraytait, alih1991, vjdev2015, christopher.a.cruzen, 8 others like this -
additionally, in season 7 episode 6, job was given kill credit for the 7 wights that disintegrated when he killed the white walker -bm.315.kelly
Jamiemurraytait, nyan, coreymarkhembree, altomarj, 8 others like this -
jon* -bm.315.kelly
Jamiemurraytait likes this -
If Melisandre is getting points for lighting the trench and Jon Snow is getting points for Dragon kills, then I am pretty sure Arya should get at least a winning amount of kills and MVP! -palecekc
elgrondy31, altomarj, alih1991, christopher.a.cruzen, 6 others like this -
She shouldn't get the points for the army turning to dust. Just for the Night King. -prestonpalecek
padrebojangles likes this -
the precedent was already set by jon last season -bm.315.kelly
nyan, Jamiemurraytait, ronsuij, altomarj, 9 others like this -
Good call @bm.315.kelly, here is that event for reference: https://fantasora.com/event/3680 -nyan
ronsuij, touindisguise, pjh09f like this -
Yeah this is a good debate as this one event breaks this league ><. In other leagues I've been in a good rule to have established would be a kill cap in a single scene or episode. Like +50 points cap for those Dragon burning scenes so that you as the admin don't have to make this arbitrary decision on how many points to award. That would have solved this Arya debate as well. At any rate still a very fun game to play with friends! -stevenlaird88
kschamber likes this -
If this garbage passes, then the wight army needs a point revision on kills, or the night king political power needs to be drastically reconsidered. Getting 3 points for multiplying his army by an ungodly amount is a bit of a joke. It seems to be ok to give unreasonable amounts of points to dragons and dragon riders where you are literally duplicating points for 6 different draftable characters in the hundreds, but give barely a fraction to an army that steamrolled everyone and multiplied three fold. -padrebojangles
Jamiemurraytait, victor.alavedra, vjdev2015, kelseylawniczak, 7 others like this -
Gonna have to side with @bm.315.kelly. If Jon got credit for the wights when killing the white walker, Arya should get the same. However, I am down for a cap her kill count if we are also capping kills from the dragons. -trunksgt243
cjbeck2000, vjdev2015, aentwisle, clairescrivani22, 6 others like this -
i agree nk should get more special points, but i think the dragons and dragon riders are fine, they’re justly earned via their special points rule (though i don’t think kills by dragons when not being ridden should count for their riders if any occurred) and we knew that at some point one way or another they would be torching a horde -bm.315.kelly
vjdev2015 and dlapato like this -
^ well put padrebojangles. The wight army got a paltry 3 points for the entire on screen reanimation of dozens of wight because its 'per scene'. Lets either award everyone their fair uncapped points or cap everyone at reasonable kill amount. Wight army cost like $350 (one of the most expensive) so why are they the only ones without a scaling special? -ryanmcfarlane09
vjdev2015, kelseylawniczak, campeajm, codyandrew77, 2 others like this -
also if were going to give arya 1000s of points for killing the wights, why are we not giving any points to the wights for deaths -ryanmcfarlane09
padrebojangles, victor.alavedra, vjdev2015, christopher.a.cruzen, 8 others like this -
The precedent was set last season as per @bm,315.kelly. We can't change it now.
As for capping kill counts ... This is not the first massive kill we have experienced or any other high scoring situation. That is why roto scoring was added. Massive kills wiped our league so we made the change and it has made us all much happier people one massive act can't ruin the league. -stefanik62
altomarj, vjdev2015, kremershell, pjh09f, 2 others like this -
I think the precedent being set in previous seasons is enough of a case for these points as it is. I think a cap is unfair also, Arya hasn't been made OP through a loophole in the rules, she takes a wild chance and pulls of the kill of the entire show to date, the culmination of a three season long training montage. In season 6 you didn't seem to put a cap on Cersei's kills in the sept of Baelor instance, even though it was ludicrously more kills than anyone would have got over the entire season. I think the only case for a cap is that Arya will get A LOT of points for this, but thats how a draft like this goes, as we saw in season 6, one crazy move from a character can change the table drastically, but thats the beauty of the game. -Jamiemurraytait
gilgatex, ronsuij, palecekc, altomarj, 10 others like this -
She should at least get point for killing the draftable players. Long bearded walkers and Viserion right? -elgrondy31
altomarj, vjdev2015, dlapato, Karis Reavis like this -
I would say, to counterbalance the compounding numbers for deaths and kills, a point cap of 100 for those categories should be set. -altomarj
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@gilgatex i do agree precedent should be honored - i guess the point is that an uncapped system for mass kills is not a sustainable model. Literally every other category of points becomes meaningless when one mass kill will score more points than 80 percent of characters will score in their entire CAREER across all categories. A sustainable, engaging, and fun fantasy platform has to cap these events players engaged who don't have the handful of characters capable of mega kills. -ryanmcfarlane09
altomarj and kschamber like this -
Cersei got 452 points for blowing up the Sept of Baelor. We can just cap big moments like this at 450 to keep precedent. -trunksgt243
Jamiemurraytait, ryanmcfarlane09, vjdev2015 like this -
I completely agree with Jamiemurraytait, This was the final blow, no one saw this coming, it could have easily been another character, it was just badass that it was arya, so not sure how she doesn't win the episode in general. -palecekc
altomarj, Jamiemurraytait, vjdev2015, nyan, 4 others like this -
^^^Exactly. -trunksgt243
palecekc likes this -
i understand that non roto leagues will have a tough time with this, but if there wasn’t a cap on cersei’s, there shouldn’t be one here. it’s the final season, there is going to be some lopsided scoring as some characters do more important things than others. i don’t think “but no one else will get that many kills” is good justification for a cap, i actually think the gravity of the event fully justifies giving an accurate score -bm.315.kelly
Jamiemurraytait, trunksgt243, ronsuij, alih1991, 6 others like this -
If we wanna get technical, Arya only killed the Night King. The others weren’t death per say, but more the magic keeping them animated being dissipated. -conor_finlay
nyan, dlapato, kailin, krystataylor14, 2 others like this -
The precedent has already been set that wights are unnamed characters and killing them provides points. Does anyone have an estimate of how many wights are shown dying after NK death? -bkarsin
vjdev2015, alih1991, pjh09f like this -
yeah i mean she killed the NK - thats huge. I just don't even know why we bother with other point categories that become laughably worthless. I'm so glad our league went to the DFS style scoring by category this season. -ryanmcfarlane09
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that isn’t a good argument. ignoring precedent from last season and following your logic, none of the wights are actually alive, they’re just reanimated, so none of them actually died when being torched by dragons or broken by dragonglass, so no one should get any kill points this episode except for wights that kill humans. -bm.315.kelly
Jamiemurraytait, cjbeck2000, trunksgt243, alih1991, 4 others like this -
that was @conor_finlay -bm.315.kelly
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@conor_finlay to be even more technical, Cersei didn't even kill them with her own hands. Not sure we want to go with technically. -trunksgt243
nyan and vjdev2015 like this -
If anyone should get points, it should be the Night King. Arya killed one person, but he released/killed them by stopping his magic. -prognar
padrebojangles likes this -
@prognar, he didn't stop him magic by choice. It was by Arya. -trunksgt243
palecekc and vjdev2015 like this -
If Arya gets the points for individual killings of the wright army, the wright army should get equal points for their deaths. Agree on the scaling for reanimation of the army too. -kelseylawniczak
Jamiemurraytait, devindarif, djiunn211 like this -
@kelseylawniczak I think this is a fair point. From what I can tell there is a general consensus that these points be counted properly, and that would include the deaths. However at 5 points (correct me if I'm wrong) for a death thats probably a bit much if individually they are unnamed characters. Maybe a point or 1/2 point per death?
-Jamiemurraytait
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Mentioned this in the other thread but definitely consider using H2H or Roto scoring - these are scoring systems specifically designed to handle imbalanced scoring with a soft cap effect (in roto each category rank is worth 1pt only, no matter if you win the rank by 5pts or 1000pts). This can be changed in the League settings even after leagues have started. -nyan
Lem Lemoncake likes this -
@nyan, does this mean arya will be awarded the points for this?? -Jamiemurraytait
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Since the army is one entity, maybe killings should be managed like.wounding a character. A single wight kill wouldn't Garner a point as it's 1/100000+ of damage. However, dragons blowing through would constitute some points, and killing/raising the whole army would be major points. -prognar
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@Jamiemurraytait agreed +5 per wright death seems like way too many. I think either we would have to count the Wright Army as one kill for Arya as they are a named character and then each individual named White Walker / Viserion with 5 points for their death and Arya points for each of the named kills. OR individually count each Wright/WW as a death/kill equally and award 2 points per death/kill of the Wright army as unnamed characters and 10 points for kills of Viserion/the named White Walkers with them getting the rulebook 5 points for death. -kelseylawniczak
aflint likes this -
I thought the rules for the eight army specifically say deaths don’t give them points. I think the death points should only go to the undead who don’t have that specification-the white walkers, dragon, and named wights -bm.315.kelly
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@prognar. If we change how many points your get killing a wight for Arya's kill, you would need to change how we are scoring them for everyone. Or am I misunderstanding you? -trunksgt243
palecekc likes this -
On one hand, I appreciate precedent; however, we've already ignored precedents this season. For example, in previous seasons, the dragons have been awarded points for eating lambs and children offscreen provided that the number killed was specifically stated. This season, it was decided that dragons getting points for sheep and goats wasn't fair even though the precedent had been set in two previous instances.
Taking that all under consideration, I think it's reasonable that Arya get some major points for her actions. At minimum, she should get points for killing the Night King, the draftable characters as named characters (all white walkers, wight giants, wight army), political points for winning the battle at Winterfell, political points for winning the war against the dead. Getting points for killing all the wights? It never made sense to me that someone would get points for secondary effects of killing white walkers. -dlapato
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- There can be a debate about whether killing all other entities except the Night King are indirect kills, as it's specified in the rulebook that "indirect kills are no longer counted".
- Either way, if the entire dead army kill is to be given to Arya, that should count maximum as killing the "Wight Army" character, rather than each wight. Also for "Wight Giants" and Viserion.
Besides, that would kill all reasonable fun from the purpose of Fantasora... -amitelran2110
krystataylor14 and IPKOB like this -
If the Dragons are getting hundreds of points for the episode in killing so many white walkers, it is only fair that Arya get credit for each individual wight in the world who died when she killed the Night King. It's only fair. Just the onscreen aftereffects of the kill show she is directly responsible for several hundred and inferred to be thousands. I think it would be more fair to take away from the dragons, as the scoring disparity would make the whole season's draft unfun. Give them a kill point for any specific named wights and one for the masses. Any named wight that was still alive at the time of the stab should go to Arya as well as a point for the wight army.
It would be completely unfair to give the dragons hundreds of points for strafing runs against the horde if eradicating the entirety of the horde doesn't give Arya the same kind of tally. -sombertone
trunksgt243, rbxd187, wmwardlaw, pjh09f, 4 others like this -
Considering the wight army is a named character, I think the fair thing would be to give her named kills for each whiteWalker, eight army,viersion,NK and wight giants -hindsight44
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then we should remove all wight kills from all the other characters since they didn’t kill the army? -bm.315.kelly
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Is this being considered, why are win's being awarded? It seems like the consensus is that more points need to be awarded for this kill however it's done, and definitely more than John, this was like his sissiest episode other than him pursuing the night king he wasn't doing much other than worrying about D and his dragon fire score is beating out the MVP Arya! -palecekc
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Arya should definitely get points for killing the whole army. We already have established precedent with Jon's White Walker kill last season. Other precedents have only been changed based on a discussion of the event beforehand (changing dragon kill points for example, was done at the beginning of the season not after an episode where it became relevant.) Similarly, a cap should have been decided on beforehand, but we all knew this was going to be a high-scoring episode. I mean, Jon has almost 300 points and Drogon and Dany are both around 500 points each. And you can't change the wight army to a single individual for scoring reasons because then everybody else who was fighting against them should be the same logic only get points for a "minor injury" since they didn't kill the whole army on their own. There isn't really a good argument for her not getting the points based on the already established scoring rules -cfitzgerald1395
palecekc, ronsuij, trunksgt243, altomarj, 6 others like this -
If Arya gets these indirect kills, NK should get these indirect deaths. -nartuv1
prestonpalecek, campeajm, CNuss, krystataylor14, 2 others like this -
Definitely think Arya should get more points for killing NK and consequentially all the wight army/ generals/ Viserion . As the dragons got points for those kills , Arya definitely had the bigger impact -simzap
altomarj, alih1991, ronsuij like this -
Another thing to consider. My team with Arya played a team with the wight army. As it stands now that team is killing me in points -- She won the battle but not the fantasy war? -elgrondy31
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Rulebook, Kills VII: "Starting with S7 and Ruleset 5, indirect kills are no longer counted."
By that rule, Arya's NK kill counts as a single named kill. That strikes me as fairly unambiguous, although it does differ from the white walker kill in S7. However, that seems like an incorrect scoring based on the current rules, so shouldn't necessarily stand as precedent.
On the other hand, I agree that seems light. There were at least 10 draftable characters that died as a result (NK, 4 white walkers, wight giants, wight army, wight Viserion, wight Karsi, wight Lyanna Mormont). Presumably also any other named characters who died this episode prior to the resurrection. Named kill points for all of those would still put her in the same range as the episode's more obvious heavy-hitters.
-stevenorum
sperlingjason, jimmy.tague, elgrondy31, sarah.a.loveland, 3 others like this -
she *is* the obvious heavy hitter of the episode, yet isn’t even in top 5 for points this episode. the rule of indirect kills not being counted directly goes against the idea of dragonrider points. at the end of the day, this is the crux of the issue. dragons and their riders score in the hundreds for inconsequential strafe runs, but killing the nk, the whole army, all WWs, and vyserion gave 10 points. that is ludicrous imo, and i feel like this wouldn’t be such a contentious point if it had been jon who killed him. -bm.315.kelly
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This one is approved, consistent with how it was previously scored for Jon in S7E6 - in that S7 discussion there was worry about killing the Night King being a "lotto ticket" and I think that was borne out - Arya was a darkhorse to kill the NK, everyone was surprised, and everyone loved it. Letting her win the full jackpot of points, for one category and one episode, feels about right and isn't gamebreaking for either Roto, H2H, or salary.
There's a lot of counting to do for this, and along with a few other Specials changes will push back final counts to Wednesday. I'll also auto-convert all Direct-scoring (non-H2H) leagues to Roto, although league admins can change this back if they really want. -nyan
trunksgt243 and christopher.a.cruzen like this -
Fingers crossed the wight army gets similar treatment consider that actually physically killed thousands themselves... -schaar1986
djiunn211, padrebojangles, harrington.129, ejbastine, 4 others like this -
So one 15 second scene nets a character over 5 times an entire team's two-week cumulative point total?
Admin you really gotta figure out the scoring WAY better. That's absurd to consider it a "lotto" when she literally only killed a handful of actually draftable characters.
And if the dragon riders get to keep their kill points, then why were the dragons even draftable in the first place...? They were just glorified teacup ride passengers. -ejbastine
CNuss and prestonpalecek like this -
so the white army gets the equivalent number of death points then too right? -devindarif
victor.alavedra, alicehanners, prestonpalecek, nick.k.bauer, 4 others like this -
....we're saying we actually see 9000 wights die on-screen after Arya kills the night king? and these aren't indirect kills which shouldn't be counted -devindarif
csinderman, gheiding, imonaship12, aflint, 2 others like this -
text on wight army clearly says no points for death, and if you don’t want to give arya points for each wight because the wight army is a named character, than you have to take away all points from all human characters and replace with 1 point for a minor injury to a named character. which would be dumb -bm.315.kelly
trunksgt243, nyan, gilgatex, jedjackoway, 2 others like this -
Would NK get points then for all reanimated wights? -Grog
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firstly i would like to say that i am against giving arya these points because i feel that they were indirect kills (i also feel this way about the precedent set last season with jon), but if she is going to get points for this, i feel that 9000 is way too low. it is stated in the script for the end of season 7 that the army of the dead is 100,000 strong, so if arya is getting the points she should, at a minimum, be getting 200k points -IPKOB
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@ipkob all the precedent literally ever only credits on screen kills. Your way assumes zero other characters killed anyone which is absurd. -ryanmcfarlane09
nyan likes this -
Shouldn't the wight army get like 9000 death points the same way Arya got all those points for killing them? -gmittermike
thejackboyd, mlopez, sperlingjason, zllsports31, 3 others like this -
Arya literally saved all of humanity. Yes she should get the points. -geaux.rusty
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Arya:
Shouldn't get any points beyond the NK kill as those are indirect kills, which are not counted according to the rulebook (rulebook citation: "starting with S7 and Ruleset 5, indirect kills are no longer counted.").
Wight Army:
Should get character's Death score.
Counting death-per-wight within the character's score quite defies the basic logic of being a character :\
-amitelran2110
andrey.k and mary.j.metzger like this -
I think that the wights killed by the death of the Knight King would be indirect kills for Arya. She did not personally go to each of those wights and kill them one by one, which would merit points. True it was an awesome move to take out the NK, and for that add political points, etc., but she did not personally kill all those wights. -mary.j.metzger
amitelran2110 likes this -
This is now counted and updated into a few different events, along with the screencaps used. 9000 turned out to be a grossly high estimate for the scenes actually shown.
re: "direct kills", there is some legacy to the rulebook text and this is definitely confusing - that line is specifically an update for the crossed out section on "commanded kills", and is meant to address indirect kills such as Joffrey-order-Ilyn-to-execute-Ned.
Besides the S7E6 precedent, I think there are a lot of analogies that hold up well with this - chopping down a tree with people in it, shooting down a plane with people in it, killing a surgeon who's keeping a patient alive.
This has been stated elsewhere but the Wight Army description has always explicitly stated "not counted for the death category". I get that people want points for their teams but tit-for-tat scoring is not a competitive mechanic (a very good criticism for why the dragonrider specials should have been gotten rid of). -nyan
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I don't understand, the rulebook specifically states:
"VII. Starting with S7 and Ruleset 5, indirect kills are no longer counted."
Arya's scene killing the Night King, results in Wight Army death, is the core definition of indirect kills.
It's not even a matter of maintaining competitiveness, it just doesn't suit the Fantasora rulebook!
-remi.kdu
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@remi.kdu this is addressed directly in the above comment above yours. There's a crossed out section for "commanded kills" and this is what the line is reference. "Indirect" is unfortunate wording, it should have just re-stated Commanded Kills at the time. -nyan
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@nyan - I'm sorry, but I still don't understand.
The crossed out "commanded kills" is irrelevant as it's crossed out.
I've carefully read this category once again, and it clearly states "indirect kills are no longer counted".
This Arya's scene is nothing else than an indirect kill...
Also, even if you regard it somehow as "direct" kill, than the killed characters are:
1. Night King
2-5. The 4 draftable White Walkers
6. Wight Giants
7. Wight Army
8. Viserion
The entire of the Wight Army (which is a draftable character) is destroyed, not single wights...
However, that's still a violation of the rulebook, so I don't think it really matters.
-remi.kdu
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The wights on the show are characters that will count as a kill each, it is independent of what is made draftable for the fantasy game. Otherwise, you couldn't count any of Brienne's or Jorah's kills since they didn't finish off the entire army.
I have updated that section of the Rulebook to reclarify that section (and also added sections XII and XIII to make the on-screen and attributable explicit criteria). In the context of that line, indirect = commanded. "Indirect" has not been used with any other definition in the context of fantasy scoring in previous seasons. -nyan
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- I understand a specific wight kill as part of fighting.
But, given the entire Wights Army had been destroyed as a result of the Night King's kill, it stands out as a whole entity. That regards the entire Wight Army character, as the relation of the wights being connected to the Night King as "Wight Army" (according to the series) is what destroyed the army.
- I think that the scoring should be updated according to the rulebook, and not vice-versa...
- Regarding Arya's commanded/indirect kill - the written terminology is very clear, I can't state it better than written really...
I can't seem to understand a reason for approving this scoring given it's highly controversial and destroys the leagues. -remi.kdu
benjaminboyd92, tal.t, bryleetch16 like this
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