Matchup: The survivors vs The Mad Queen for Ep 5

The survivors (aaapecoranera)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Deaths	Special
Leaf A member of the Children of the Forest. She leads Bran and his companions to cave of the Three-eyed Raven.	#58	110	97	3	10	0
Bran Stark The fourth of the Stark children. A greenseer and a warg, Bran has mystical visions of the future and the ability to leap into the minds of others to control them - power he is only beginning to tap into. His journeys north of the Wall have recently led him to the cave of the Three-eyed Raven and the Children of the Forest.	#10	53	19	9	10	15
Khal Moro The leader of a new Khalasar of Dothraki.	#39	1	0	0	1	0
Arya Stark The youngest of the Stark girls. Free-spirited and rebellious, Arya escaped the war-ravaged Westeros and currently resides in Braavos, where she trains under the face-changing assassin Jaqen H'ghar in the House of Black and White.	#7	0	0	0	0	0
Daario Naharis Leader of the Second Sons, a sellsword company who now serves Daenerys Targaryen. He is also one of Daneerys' trusted advisors and her lover.	#23	0	0	0	0	0
Ellaria Sand The former paramour of Prince Oberyn. She is also the mother of several of his bastard children, known as the Sand Snakes, and plots revenge against the Lannisters for Oberyn's death.	#42	0	0	0	0	0
Lancel Lannister A cousin to the Lannister children. In a past life he was a stuttering servant to King Robert Baratheon and secret consort to his cousin Queen Cersei Lannister. Lancel now serves as a leading member of the Sparrows, a dangerously militant religious group whose power over King's Landing is growing.	#26	0	0	0	0	0
Tycho Nestoris A representative of the Iron Bank of Braavos, a powerful bank who holds a large sum of debt from the Iron Throne.	#55	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		164	116	12	21	15

The Mad Queen (jamiehoffman)

Character	Drafted	Total	Deaths
Doran Martell The head of House Martell of Dorne, and elder brother of Prince Oberyn Martell.	#28	1	1
Melisandre A Red Priestess from Asshai, Melisandre served as a close advisor to Stannis Baratheon until she abandoned his cause at the Battle of Winterfell against the Boltons.	#12	0	0
Obara Sand The eldest of Prince Oberyn Martell's bastard children, known as the Sand Snakes. She wields a spear.	#44	0	0
High Sparrow The leader of the Sparrows, a religious movement within the Faith of the Seven. After being appointed as High Septon by Cersei Lannister, he has lead a sweeping inquiry to root out moral corruption in King's Landing, imprisoning Loras Tyrell, Margaery Tyrell, and Cersei Lannister.	#21	0	0
Grand Maester Pycelle The Grand Maester of the Seven Kingdoms. Pycelle is highly educated and serves as an advisor to the King.	#60	0	0
Olenna Redwyne (Grandma Tyrell) The matriarch of House Tyrell, Olenna is the grandmother of Margaery and Loras. She is known as the "Queen of Thorns" for her sarcasm and wit.	#37	0	0
Olyvar A former prostitute, Olyvar now manages Littlefinger's brothels while he is away in the Eyrie. He plays a key role in the Sparrows' indictment and imprisonment of Loras Tyrell.	#53	0	0
Ramsay Bolton The legitimized bastard son of Roose Bolton, now Warden of the North. He is fond of the Bolton tradition of flaying their enemies.	#5	0	0
Totals		1	1

Kills

17:03 (+5) Leaf:

In a vision of the very distant past, Leaf plunges a shard dragonglass through the chest of a man tied to a Weirwood tree, creating one of the first White Walkers. (Major Injury of Named Character)

47:51 (+4) Leaf:

Leaf throws the first magical hand grenade, destroying two wights. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

49:26 (+2) Bran Stark:

Summer leaps onto the second wight just before it attacks Meera Reed. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

49:37 (+2) Leaf:

Leaf stabs the upside down spidey-wight through the eye. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

51:10 (+2) Bran Stark:

Summer dives into the crowd of wights as Bran and company make their escape out of the Three-Eyed Raven's cavern. He lands on one wight but is quickly cut down by the horde. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

I don't think we actually see Summer kill any wights. -tbaum9842

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2016 May 23 nyan and ddenault85 like this
:( :( :( -taylorreneegoodrich

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2016 May 23
Shouldn't we get credit for Summer's death too? -jamesrscottjr81

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2016 May 23
Bar is set fairly low for fights with henchmen/redshirts. From the rulebook spec: "Pretty much any kind of strike on random extras is counted for a kill unless the extra is shown to be explicitly alive after. This is applied often for large battle scenes." -nyan

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2016 May 23
Summer's death counted here: http://fantasora.com/event/2461 -nyan

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2016 May 23

52:46 (+76) Leaf:

Leaf sacrifices herself to detonate the magical hand grenade, engulfing a large horde of wights in the cavern tunnels and giving Meera, Hodor, and Bran more time to escape. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

11 more comments - see full thread

I just did a rewatch and paused it at this part to try to count, and at least on my computer screen I couldn't do it. It was just a mass of zombies that all flowed together. Definitely seemed more than thirty from what I could count, but it's hard to say how many she actually took out. Maybe someone with higher resolution can see better. -taylorreneegoodrich

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2016 May 24
Yea I really like the idea of letting characters like drogon just getting insane kil counts, Im actaully really looking forward to it lol. -cmwalken15

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2016 May 24 taylorreneegoodrich likes this
Alrighty.. here was my attempt at counting them. Rewatching the scene in motion (vs. still), you can get a sense of the motion of bobbing heads/limbs and sort of differentiate each one. Here's the best attempt I could muster, which tallied up to 38 distinguishable, on-screen wights: http://imgur.com/EFuhhWS -nyan

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2016 May 24

52:46 (+10) Leaf:

Leaf sacrifices detonates the magical hand grenade in the narrow cavern tunnel, engulfing herself with a large horde of wights and allowing Meera, Hodor, and Bran more time to escape. (Kill of Named Character)

53:44 (+5) Bran Stark:

Bran mentally debilitates a young Wylas by warging into him, offering him a glimpse of his future demise at the Door. (Major Injury of Named Character)

55:15 (+10) Bran Stark:

While warged in, Bran forces Hodor to hold the Door against the horde of wights as he and Meera make their escape, sacrificing him in the process. (Kill of Named Character)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

24 more comments - see full thread

@Lem Bran only half-consciously controlling the Hodors sounds like a good argument for excluding it as a betrayal. It's ambiguous even to what extent Bran is aware of how he is controlling things (both in past vision and real world), and thus it's hard to say he betrayed anyone in his subconscious (intent should matter for betrayals, else klutzy chars like Podrick would be "betraying" friends with their screwups all the time). -nyan

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2016 May 26
Really good perspectives you both brought up about the kills. I think bookworm is right that we should try to exclude intent - can of worms as you say, and accidental kills should definitely be possible.

Thinking through this, it does feel like there should be some criteria that allows for putting someone into a situation where they'll definitely be killed. Scar flinging Mufasa down to the stampeding buffalo in Long King comes to mind - no control over the actual killers there, but the death doesn't happen without Scar's direct action. From a pedantic perspective this could apply to Balon's death as well - even if it's the ocean that drowned him, it was Euron's throw that put him into that situation (and scorekeeping is all about pedantry =P).

I think we can expand on kills commanded here and ultimately include those under a subset of "inevitable death situation" rules:
I. The killer forces the victim into the situation against their will
II. The situation leads to *inevitable* death
II.I. The entity or force that directly kills the victim needs no skill or decision-making to make the kill, aside from following the commands of the killer.
III. The directly killer still gets rewarded duplicate kill points, if applicable.

What that means for the scenarios we've talked about:
1. Executions like Ned's and Fat Walda's (previously covered by Commanded Kills) are included, since the victims are imprisoned (forced into situation), and could do nothing to avoid death (inevitable). This should be the same whether it was a human killer (Ilyn Payne), controlled animals (Ramsay's hounds), as neither needed skill or decision-making (aside from following commands).

2. Scar throwing Mufasa into a canyon of stampeding buffalo is also included. Even without directly controlling the physical killers, the inevitability and lack of skill/decision-making is the same. Imagine if Ramsay throws Fat Walda into a pit of snakes instead.

3. Pushing the victim into a sword held by someone else would be a more nuanced case. As mentioned above, we don't want to get into judging the intent of the indirect killer here:

3a. The victim is shoved toward the sword-holder, who happens to have his sword positioned in a way that impales the victim. Included for the person-pusher, as no skill/decision or even actions were taken by the sword-holder. This would be the same as if the sword-holder was instead a jagged rock.

3b. The victim is shoved in the direction of the sword-holder, who must aim and position his weapon precisely to impale the victim. This would be excluded for the person-pusher, as it required skill/decision-making on the part of the sword-holder.

4. Most "noble suicides" are excluded by criteria I, because the victim willingly put themselves in it (still counted if they are physically killed by their own action, like Leaf's hand grenade).

5. In all above scenarios, the direct killer (Ilyn, Ramsay's hound, sword-holder) still gets credit. -nyan

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2016 May 26 dopeghoti likes this
I think that's definitely a fair way to approach it -bookworm13457

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2016 May 26

Political Wins

17:13 (+3) Leaf:

Leaf kills a man with a shard of dragonglass and creates a new White Walker to aid the Children of the Forset in the war against the First Men. (New Follower/Prisoner)

submitted by Lem Lemoncake (approved!)

Yeah that didn't go great for her haha -taylorreneegoodrich

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2016 May 24
I think we're missing evidence that the new WW creature was obedient in any way - we just see the blue eyes and then cut to the next scene. -nyan

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2016 May 24
Well.. as she tells it, they created allies for the war against the First Men. When a House declares support for a lord or the crown or is subjugated/forced to do so, they are counted as New Followers as well, even if they betray their vow later on, right? -Lem Lemoncake

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2016 May 24
Mostly speculation for now, but I feel an Engineer-Alien (Xenomorph) vibe going on. They created a virus as a last resort, only to find out they couldn't control it. That said, this could count under the "new baby/giving life" criteria we set in place for Jon Snow. I brought up Frankenstein and his monster there, which would be very apt. -nyan

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2016 May 24
Yeah.. we don't really know what happened, I guess I just assumed that they worked together at first and that the White Walkers went rogue some time later in the 4000 years that passed between the arrival of the First Men and the Long Night. -Lem Lemoncake

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2016 May 24

17:24 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran discovers the origins of the White Walkers - created by the Children of the Forest - during a warg visit to the past.
Bran: "It was you. You made the White Walkers."
Leaf: "We were at war. We were being slaughtered. Our sacred trees cut down. We needed to defend ourselves." (Secret Discovery)

45:24 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran's status as the Three Eyed Raven is confirmed by Benjen: "You are the Three-Eyed Raven now." (New Title)

submitted by alexanderdropkin (approved!)

53:44 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran discovers the origin of Hodor's name and condition during a visit to Winterfell's past where he wargs into a young Wylas and gives him a vision of his ultimate demise years in the future at the Door. (Secret Discovery)

submitted by wpearsal (approved!)

Deaths

51:13 (+10) Bran Stark:

Summer is cut down by a horde of wights in the Three-Eyed Raven's cavern as Bran, Meera, and Hodor make their escape. (Death)

52:46 (+10) Leaf:

Leaf sacrifices herself to detonate the magical hand grenade in the narrow cavern tunnel, engulfing a large horde of wights and allowing Meera, Hodor, and Bran more time to escape. (Death)

+1 for Doran Martell, +1 for Khal Moro

Special

16:02 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran taps into the weirwood.net with the Three-Eyed Raven to revisit a scene with the Children of the Forest at the Weirwood tree. (Special)

36:51 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran taps into weirwood.net while the Three-Eyed Raven is asleep, jumping into a vision of a frozen wasteland surrounded by wights and the White Walkers. (Special)

47:25 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran has a vision of the day his young father departed Winterfell for the Vale. (Special)

50:27 (+3) Bran Stark:

While embedded in a vision of Winterfell's past, Bran subconsciously wargs into Hodor in the present time so that they can escape from the White Walker horde approaching the cavern of the Three-Eyed Raven. (Special)

53:44 (+3) Bran Stark:

While visiting a flashback in Winterfell's past, Bran wargs into a young Wylas, giving him a vision of his present day demise while holding the Door to allow Bran and Meera time to escape the White Walker horde. (Special)

submitted by wpearsal (approved!)

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