Matchup: Bran's Legs will be King! vs Hodor 4 Pres for Ep 5

Bran's Legs will be King! (baxendale.timothy)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Deaths	Special
Bran Stark The fourth of the Stark children. A greenseer and a warg, Bran has mystical visions of the future and the ability to leap into the minds of others to control them - power he is only beginning to tap into. His journeys north of the Wall have recently led him to the cave of the Three-eyed Raven and the Children of the Forest.	#2	48	19	9	0	5	15
Yara Greyjoy Theon's older sister, Yara was raised on the Iron Islands as a true Ironborn. She is a fearsome fighter and commands a longship of her own.	#23	9	0	9	0	0	0
Eddison Tollett A member of the Night's Watch, and one of Jon Snow's few friends on the Wall.	-	3	0	0	3	0	0
Gregor Clegane (The Mountain) A knight and the head of House Clegane, bannermen to the Lannisters. He defeated Prince Oberyn Martell in a trial by combat for Tyrion Lannister's role in King Joffrey's death, although he was gravely injured in the fight. He appears to have recovered (in some form) under Grand Maester Qyburn's care, and returns to serve as a member of the Kingsguard.	#10	0	0	0	0	0	0
Benjen Stark First Ranger of the Night's Watch - in S1 he disappeared on a ranging north of the Wall and his whereabouts since then are unknown.	#15	0	0	0	0	0	0
Grey Worm The leader of the Unsullied - a highly-trained army of freed slaves who serve Daenerys Targaryen.	#26	0	0	0	0	0	0
Rickon Stark The youngest of the Stark children. He splits off from Bran and travels with Osha to the Last Hearth, seat of House Umber.	#34	0	0	0	0	0	0
Jon Snow The bastard son of Ned Stark, and the current Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. After guiding the Wildlings to safety in the aftermath of the Battle of Castle Black and the attack on Hardhome, he was betrayed by a mutiny of the Night's Watch, and left for dead in the snow.	#7	0	0	0	0	0	0
Alliser Thorne A former master-of-arms and acting Commander of the Night's Watch, Thorne narrowly lost the Lord Commander choosing to Jon Snow in S5. He later led a mutiny of disgruntled Night's Watch members against Jon Snow, stabbing and leaving him for dead.	#18	0	0	0	0	0	0
Qyburn A disgraced former Maester, who was banished from the order for engaging in forbidden experiments. He is recruited by Cersei to assist in various medical facilities, and now serves as Master of Whispers in King's Landing.	#31	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		60	19	18	3	5	15

Hodor 4 Pres (zach77bringman)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Special
White Walker (Night King) The leader of the White Walkers.	#27	16	10	6	0
Daenerys Targaryen The last royal member of the Targaryen dynasty, Daenerys and her three dragons have carved out a revolutionary empire in the east, liberating several slave cities and acquiring an army of Unsullied warriors. Her recent rule over the slave city of Meereen has been met with strife, however, and she currently finds herself lost with her largest dragon, Drogon, in Dothraki territory.	#3	6	0	6	0
Varys Formerly the Master of Whisperers in King's Landing, Varys controls a vast network of spies. After smuggling Tyrion Lannister to Essos, he reveals himself as a supporter of Daenerys Targaryen's claim to the Iron Throne. In Daenerys' absence, he serves with Tyrion Lannister and presides over the rule of Meereen.	#19	3	0	0	3
Ramsay Bolton The legitimized bastard son of Roose Bolton, now Warden of the North. He is fond of the Bolton tradition of flaying their enemies.	#6	0	0	0	0
Davos Seaworth Ser Davos is a knight serving Stannis Baratheon, and one of his most trusted advisors. He is often at odds with the Red Priestess Melisandre.	#22	0	0	0	0
Melisandre A Red Priestess from Asshai, Melisandre served as a close advisor to Stannis Baratheon until she abandoned his cause at the Battle of Winterfell against the Boltons.	#11	0	0	0	0
Tormund Giantsbane A leader of the Wildlings, and formerly a trusted lieutenant and second-in-command to Mance Rayder, the King Beyond the Wall. Although they have met in battle more than once, he bears a grudging respect for Jon Snow.	#30	0	0	0	0
Missandei A freed slave from Astapor, who serves Daenerys as an advisor and translator.	#35	0	0	0	0
Samwell Tarly A steward of the Night's Watch. He is a close friend to Jon Snow, and one of the few people known to have killed a White Walker. He journeys south to begin his training as a Maester to replace the aging Maester Aemon.	#14	0	0	0	0
Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun A Wildling Giant, who fought in the Battle of Hardhome and was one of the few to escape.	#38	0	0	0	0
Totals		25	10	12	3

Kills

49:26 (+2) Bran Stark:

Summer leaps onto the second wight just before it attacks Meera Reed. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

51:10 (+2) Bran Stark:

Summer dives into the crowd of wights as Bran and company make their escape out of the Three-Eyed Raven's cavern. He lands on one wight but is quickly cut down by the horde. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

I don't think we actually see Summer kill any wights. -tbaum9842

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2016 May 23 nyan and ddenault85 like this
:( :( :( -taylorreneegoodrich

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2016 May 23
Shouldn't we get credit for Summer's death too? -jamesrscottjr81

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2016 May 23
Bar is set fairly low for fights with henchmen/redshirts. From the rulebook spec: "Pretty much any kind of strike on random extras is counted for a kill unless the extra is shown to be explicitly alive after. This is applied often for large battle scenes." -nyan

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2016 May 23
Summer's death counted here: http://fantasora.com/event/2461 -nyan

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2016 May 23

51:57 (+10) White Walker (Night King):

The White Walker King cuts down the Three-Eyed Raven after gaining access to his cavern via Bran's unsupervised vision. (Kill of Named Character)

He doesn't get kill points for the people the wights kill? They are under his magical command. -rblaine.morris

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2016 May 23 tbaum9842, rynearson.david, korina.rangel like this
That sounds impossible to score. Although he was on my team this episode so it would be great for me, but if they started counting army kills for the commander it would lead into impossible to count territory pretty fast. -taylorreneegoodrich

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2016 May 23 shrest18, dopeghoti, nyan like this
Typically for a battle scene, the army's actions are not automatically counted for the commander. Here's the exact criteria from the rulebook: "A commanded kill is counted, if it requires absolutely no skill on the part of the person carrying it out."

This brings up an interesting point because the WW King "commands" the wights much more directly than any human commands an army. But I think it still falls into the category of the wights acting of their own zombie-mentality accord.

Note that WW King does get credit for winning the battle in general: http://fantasora.com/event/2492 -nyan

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2016 May 23
Do we really already know how the WW King commands the wights or do we all just assume that from theories and lore? :D I noticed that I kind of mixed it all up in my head and can't really tell apart anymore what was in the series, what's in the books and what I have from the tinfoiliest theories out there :p -Lem Lemoncake

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2016 May 23
But he was clearly fully in control of them at hard home otherwise they wouldn't have stopped fighting and would have kept chasing after the boats instead of just standing there. He did all of this by silently walking out on a dock and raising his arms -rblaine.morris

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2016 May 24 Lem Lemoncake likes this

53:44 (+5) Bran Stark:

Bran mentally debilitates a young Wylas by warging into him, offering him a glimpse of his future demise at the Door. (Major Injury of Named Character)

55:15 (+10) Bran Stark:

While warged in, Bran forces Hodor to hold the Door against the horde of wights as he and Meera make their escape, sacrificing him in the process. (Kill of Named Character)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

24 more comments - see full thread

@Lem Bran only half-consciously controlling the Hodors sounds like a good argument for excluding it as a betrayal. It's ambiguous even to what extent Bran is aware of how he is controlling things (both in past vision and real world), and thus it's hard to say he betrayed anyone in his subconscious (intent should matter for betrayals, else klutzy chars like Podrick would be "betraying" friends with their screwups all the time). -nyan

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2016 May 26
Really good perspectives you both brought up about the kills. I think bookworm is right that we should try to exclude intent - can of worms as you say, and accidental kills should definitely be possible.

Thinking through this, it does feel like there should be some criteria that allows for putting someone into a situation where they'll definitely be killed. Scar flinging Mufasa down to the stampeding buffalo in Long King comes to mind - no control over the actual killers there, but the death doesn't happen without Scar's direct action. From a pedantic perspective this could apply to Balon's death as well - even if it's the ocean that drowned him, it was Euron's throw that put him into that situation (and scorekeeping is all about pedantry =P).

I think we can expand on kills commanded here and ultimately include those under a subset of "inevitable death situation" rules:
I. The killer forces the victim into the situation against their will
II. The situation leads to *inevitable* death
II.I. The entity or force that directly kills the victim needs no skill or decision-making to make the kill, aside from following the commands of the killer.
III. The directly killer still gets rewarded duplicate kill points, if applicable.

What that means for the scenarios we've talked about:
1. Executions like Ned's and Fat Walda's (previously covered by Commanded Kills) are included, since the victims are imprisoned (forced into situation), and could do nothing to avoid death (inevitable). This should be the same whether it was a human killer (Ilyn Payne), controlled animals (Ramsay's hounds), as neither needed skill or decision-making (aside from following commands).

2. Scar throwing Mufasa into a canyon of stampeding buffalo is also included. Even without directly controlling the physical killers, the inevitability and lack of skill/decision-making is the same. Imagine if Ramsay throws Fat Walda into a pit of snakes instead.

3. Pushing the victim into a sword held by someone else would be a more nuanced case. As mentioned above, we don't want to get into judging the intent of the indirect killer here:

3a. The victim is shoved toward the sword-holder, who happens to have his sword positioned in a way that impales the victim. Included for the person-pusher, as no skill/decision or even actions were taken by the sword-holder. This would be the same as if the sword-holder was instead a jagged rock.

3b. The victim is shoved in the direction of the sword-holder, who must aim and position his weapon precisely to impale the victim. This would be excluded for the person-pusher, as it required skill/decision-making on the part of the sword-holder.

4. Most "noble suicides" are excluded by criteria I, because the victim willingly put themselves in it (still counted if they are physically killed by their own action, like Leaf's hand grenade).

5. In all above scenarios, the direct killer (Ilyn, Ramsay's hound, sword-holder) still gets credit. -nyan

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2016 May 26 dopeghoti likes this
I think that's definitely a fair way to approach it -bookworm13457

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2016 May 26

Political Wins

17:24 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran discovers the origins of the White Walkers - created by the Children of the Forest - during a warg visit to the past.
Bran: "It was you. You made the White Walkers."
Leaf: "We were at war. We were being slaughtered. Our sacred trees cut down. We needed to defend ourselves." (Secret Discovery)

21:17 (+3) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara exposes Euron Greyjoy's assassination of her father Balon during the Kingsmoot, though he quickly counters it.
Yara: "Now I know what my first act as queen will be. To execute the man who killed my father."
Euron: "I did. I killed him. Threw him right over a rope bridge and watched him fall. He was leading us nowhere and we would still be heading there if it weren't for me. No one loved him. No one wanted to follow him ... I apologize to you all for not killing him years ago." (Secret Discovery)

submitted by cmwalken15 (approved!)

26:24 (+3) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara pays the Iron Price for the Greyjoy Royal Fleet, stealing away all of the ships during Euron Greyjoy's coronation ceremony. (Acquire a New Castle/City/Army/Loot)

submitted by cmwalken15 (approved!)

this comment is not specific to this post.
I believe Yara should get separate political points for all these reasons, although they all take place within the same overarching plot event. That is Betrayal, Convincing, Discovery of a Secret, Gaining a Weapon. -cmwalken15

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2016 May 23
A bit of a stretch for Weapon, but I think we'll be adding "Gaining an Army" to the same category as castles/cities, in the new ruleset (details this week!). -nyan

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2016 May 23 jedjackoway and as38 like this
I was actually surprised I couldn't find it in the rules, haha. That's why in my previous post I used the "convincing a mobilization" as a workaround to that exact problem. In this post i'm talking specifically about the ships themselves, they are a weapon and that is what she acquired, the Greyjoy Royal Fleet. -cmwalken15

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2016 May 24

26:26 (+3) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara refuses to go out quietly after losing the Kingsmoot election to Euron Greyjoy - during his coronation ceremony she makes her escape and steals off with the best ships of the Iron Fleet. (Act of Betrayal)

submitted by taylorreneegoodrich (approved!)

29:47 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys overrules Jorah's decision to leave her: "Do not walk away from your Queen, Jorah the Andal. You have not been dismissed. You swore to obey my commands for the rest of your life. Well, I command you to find the cure wherever it is in this world. I command you to heal yourself and then return to me." (Executive Decision)

32:04 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

High Priestess Kinvara signs on to Team Daenerys as the Lord of HYPE.

"You don't need to persuade me. I came to help. Daenerys Stormborn is the one who was promised. From the fire she was reborn to remake the world ... I will summon my most eloquent priests. They will spread the word. Daenerys has been sent to lead the people against the darkness in this war and in the great war still to come." (New Follower/Prisoner)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

39:04 (+3) White Walker (Night King):

The White Walker King discovers the location of Bran and the Three-Eyed Raven after Bran's unsupervised usage of the Weirwood Palantir. (Secret Discovery)

45:24 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran's status as the Three Eyed Raven is confirmed by Benjen: "You are the Three-Eyed Raven now." (New Title)

submitted by alexanderdropkin (approved!)

51:57 (+3) White Walker (Night King):

The White Walkers defeat the magical defenses of the Children of the Forest, slaughtering Leaf and her companions and killing the Three-Eyed Raven with their horde of wights. (Victorious Battle)

53:44 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran discovers the origin of Hodor's name and condition during a visit to Winterfell's past where he wargs into a young Wylas and gives him a vision of his ultimate demise years in the future at the Door. (Secret Discovery)

submitted by wpearsal (approved!)

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

45:13 (+3) Eddison Tollett:

Night's Watchman: "Should we close the gate, Lord Commander?"
Edd: "I'm not the Lord Command- *looks around* yeah, *ahem* ... close the bloody gate." (Funny Line)

submitted by nick.embrey (approved!)

Deaths

51:13 (+5) Bran Stark:

Summer is cut down by a horde of wights in the Three-Eyed Raven's cavern as Bran, Meera, and Hodor make their escape. (Death)

+0 for Rickon Stark, +0 for Alliser Thorne

Special

16:02 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran taps into the weirwood.net with the Three-Eyed Raven to revisit a scene with the Children of the Forest at the Weirwood tree. (Special)

34:36 (+3) Varys:

High Priestess Kinvara talks to Varys about his castration.
"If not for your... mutilation at the hand of a second-rate sorcerer, you wouldn't be here. Helping the Lord's Chosen bring his light into the world... Do you remember what you heard that night when the sorcerer tossed your parts in the fire?" (Special)

submitted by emilien.raggi (approved!)

36:51 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran taps into weirwood.net while the Three-Eyed Raven is asleep, jumping into a vision of a frozen wasteland surrounded by wights and the White Walkers. (Special)

47:25 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran has a vision of the day his young father departed Winterfell for the Vale. (Special)

50:27 (+3) Bran Stark:

While embedded in a vision of Winterfell's past, Bran subconsciously wargs into Hodor in the present time so that they can escape from the White Walker horde approaching the cavern of the Three-Eyed Raven. (Special)

53:44 (+3) Bran Stark:

While visiting a flashback in Winterfell's past, Bran wargs into a young Wylas, giving him a vision of his present day demise while holding the Door to allow Bran and Meera time to escape the White Walker horde. (Special)

submitted by wpearsal (approved!)

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