Matchup: what is HOT may never PIE vs Battle of the Bastards for Ep 3

The night is dark and full of titties

what is HOT may never PIE (nguyen.luan.t)

Character	Drafted	Total	Politics	Insults	Special
Euron Greyjoy The new King of the Iron Islands, after killing his brother Balon Greyjoy. He is described as cunning, ruthless, and with a touch of madness.	#11	30	9	12	9
Harrag (actor: Brendan Cowell)	-	6	3	3	0
Sandor Clegane (The Hound) A fearsome Lannister knight, formerly known as the Hound. After being left for dead after losing a fight with Brienne of Tarth, he recovered and briefly reformed as a laborer in a nonviolent commune, but has joined with Beric Dondarrion and the Brotherhood without Banners after bandits attack and destroy the village.	#10	0	0	0	0
Meera Reed The eldest child of Howland Reed, bannerman to the Starks. She assists Bran in his journeys north of the Wall and is the only other surviving member of his party.	#30	0	0	0	0
Syrio Forel Arya's swordfighting teacher. He is a master swordfighter, and a former First Sword of Braavos. His whereabouts are unknown after he helps Arya escape capture by Lannister soldiers.	#70	0	0	0	0
Hodor	-	0	0	0	0
Benjen Stark The First Ranger of the Night's Watch, Benjen has been lost for some time North of the Wall after being attacked by White Walkers while north of the Wall. After being saved by the Children of the Forest, he exists in an undead state, unable to pass back south of the Wall.	#31	0	0	0	0
Totals		36	12	15	9

Battle of the Bastards (cecilia.vy)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Insults	Wine	Special
Olenna Redwyne (Grandma Tyrell) The matriarch of House Tyrell, Olenna seeks only revenge against the Lannisters after Cersei wiped out nearly all of House Tyrell in the wildfire explosion at the Sept of Baelor. She is known as the "Queen of Thorns" for her sarcasm and wit.	#13	19	5	9	5	0
Archmaester Ebrose Archmaester at the Citadel in Oldtown, where new Maesters are trained.	#53	12	0	0	0	12
Gilly A wildling who lived north of the Wall. After she befriended Samwell Tarly, she escaped with him to Castle Black, and has sailed to Oldtown with Samwell as he begins his Maester's training.	#33	0	0	0	0	0
Thoros of Myr A Red Priest from the city of Myr - he is a member of the Brotherhood Without Banners, led by Beric Dondarrion.	#48	0	0	0	0	0
Qyburn The new Master of Whispers in King's Landing, loyally serving Queen Cersei Lannister. A disgraced former Maester, he engages in many scientific experiments in his dungeon lab	#28	0	0	0	0	0
Bronze Yohn Royce Head of House Royce, bannermen to House Arryn of the Vale.	#68	0	0	0	0	0
Brienne of Tarth A skilled fighter and heir to House Tarth. After swearing an oath to Catelyn Stark, she continues her mission to ensure the safety of the Stark girls.	#8	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		31	5	9	5	12

Kills

0:00 (+5) Olenna Redwyne (Grandma Tyrell):

After the Tyrell forces are defeated and Highgarden is taken by the Lannisters, Olenna accepts the mercy offering of poisoned wine offered by Jaime.

Olenna: "Will there be pain?"
Jaime: "No, I made sure of that."
Olenna: "That's good." (Major Injury of Named Character)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

16 more comments - see full thread

Yea, Jaime definitely deserves something here. He poured the wine, put the poison in, and then gave her the poisoned wine. Maybe Olenna can get the major injury points but Jaime needs the kill.
-kevinpetsky

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2017 Aug 2
If we were on the rules used to score S6, everyone here would be right on the money - we used to have an allowance that characters would get Kills if they are ordering an execution or other unskilled act to be carried out, or coercing someone into death. And under that scoring Jaime is definitely deserving, he's cornered Olenna and gave her no choice but this act.

While this worked great in the past for other executions in the past, we ran into a lot of debates last season with Lem's bandits, and then the huge Cersei-Qyburn-wildfire discussion, mainly around what it means to be an "unskilled" order. The ultimate outcome of those discussions, and a major scoring change for S7, is that we would only count the direct kills, embracing the concept that "he who passes the sentence should swing the sword." So Joffrey ends up not getting credit for pussying out and ordering Illyn Payne to execute Ned. Theon gets credit he wouldn't have otherwise gotten for taking the reigns from Dagmer and executing Rodrik himself. Characters like Jaime lose out in situations like this, where it feels like he deserves some partial credit at least, but overall it seems a more satisfying score and rewards the characters that get their hands dirty. Jaime would've gotten the points if he force-fed Olenna, or tricked Olenna into drinking the poisoned wine, but he chose a route that kept his hands clean (even if it was from an respectful, merciful rationale).

If you want to see the original discussion, it's in this S6 event (it's also where the idea for "political rivals eliminated" came about): http://fantasora.com/event/3056

That said, I think I would buy an argument that Olenna was briefly Jaime's prisoner here, which is what gives him the power to force her to drink the poison. And that does fit better it seems, Olenna's death is due to Jaime's political power position at the time, not his ability in violence/killing. -nyan

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2017 Aug 2 kevinpetsky likes this
That seems fair
-kevinpetsky

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2017 Aug 4

Political Wins

0:00 (+3) Euron Greyjoy:

With his succesful destruction of Yara Greyjoy's fleet and the "gift" of the captured Ellaria and Tyene Sand, Euron wins over Cersei and convinces her to ally with his Ironborn and accept his marriage proposal. (Convincing Argument)

submitted by hkeseyan (approved!)

Original submission by @hkeseyan:

Euron has convinced Cersei to accept his hand in marriage. Cersei: ""You shall have what your heart desires"

Cersei has apparently accepted Euron's proposal for his hand in marriage from back in episode 1. Scoring for this event was delayed until we see confirmation that Cersei agrees to the deal, which we receive in this episode. Cersei has given Euron her word that he will receive his reward, in front of Jaime Lannister and the court, as we see Jaime uncomfortably react to her words. -nyan

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2017 Aug 2
I think it's fine that Cersei still says, "...after the war is won". Like Robert's order to send assassins for Daenerys, it's fine if the order is not carried out to completion, just that the course of action was decided upon. In addition, he does still convince Cersei to ally with the Ironborn and name him head of the Royal Navy. Although that's kind of trivial because it's basically all Ironborn ships at this point. -nyan

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2017 Aug 2

0:00 (+3) Harrag (actor: Brendan Cowell):

Harrag's ship discovers the fate of Theon as he picks him up out of the rubble and water after Euron's attack on Yara's fleet. (Secret Discovery)

submitted by ssantise (approved!)

12 more comments - see full thread

Also I don't believe this relevant to the slippery slope discussion. In that event the argument was based upon the idea that it was no secret that the dragonglass was at Dragonstone. Unlike the dragonglass there is no Stannis or Tyrion casually talking about where Theon was before Harrag pulled him on board. In fact as you pointed out, the only character to talk about Theon at all since he disappeared is Euron, who thinks he's dead, all the while Theon is secretly still alive. -ssantise

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2017 Aug 1
Bullshit -carter5719

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2017 Aug 2
Harrag is gonna need a special this season :) any thoughts? -jgiuliano

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2017 Aug 2

23:28 (+3) Euron Greyjoy:

Cersei accepts Euron Greyjoy's proposal of an alliance, appointing him as the head of the navy of the Seven Kindgoms. (New Title)

55:21 (+3) Euron Greyjoy:

As the Unsullied are busy attacking Casterly Rock, Euron's Iron Fleet ambushes their ships, destroying the Unsullied navy and cutting off any sea-based escape route in the process.

Jaime Lannister to Olenna Tyrell: "They won't be able to hold it (Casterly Rock). Euron Greyjoy's navy burned their ships, we emptied the larders before we left. Eventually, they'll be forced to abandon their position and march all the way across Westeros." (Victorious Battle)

7 more comments - see full thread

Jaime's dialogue seems to confirm it is Euron leading them, and there aren't any other Ironborn fleets led by anyone else at the moment. Giving Dany points here would be like giving Cersei credit for everything Euron and Jaime do.

I do think Tyrion is deserving of something for the plan, but he wasn't there to execute it and I'm not sure what the scoring category would be like. -nyan

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2017 Aug 1
We should assume Euron's ship Silence being prominently shown (as it has in every episode this season) means Euron is present, unless explicitly seen under the command of someone else. Just like the rule change with Dany's dragons.

As for Tyrion - he was only sort-of successful. His plan worked in terms of obtaining the castle, but it failed horribly in terms of making progress towards winning the war. I don't think you can expect Dany would be too happy with Tyrion's plan. Jaime sure was happy about it, though. His strategy likely doomed Dany's most trusted army. Grey Worm still gets points for winning the physical battle and actually capturing the castle, but Tyrion as a war strategist did not have a victory here. -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 1 Lem Lemoncake, nyan, alexanderdropkin like this
Good argument about the Silence - didn't notice or think of that :) -Lem Lemoncake

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2017 Aug 1

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

0:00 (+3) Olenna Redwyne (Grandma Tyrell):

on Cersei: "She's a disease, I regret my role in spreading it. You will too." (Witty Insult)

submitted by megan.m.rabuse (approved!)

0:00 (+3) Olenna Redwyne (Grandma Tyrell):

on Joffrey Baratheon: "He really was a cunt, wasn't he?" (Funny Line)

submitted by megan.m.rabuse (approved!)

0:00 (+3) Euron Greyjoy:

to Yara, mocking Theon's reaction during their battle on her ship: "*Ohhh noooo!* What a twat." (Witty Insult)

submitted by hkeseyan (approved!)

0:00 (+3) Euron Greyjoy:

to Jaime: "There's nothing like it is there, the love of the people ... but I suppose you wouldn't know". (Witty Insult)

submitted by hkeseyan (approved!)

20:08 (+3) Harrag (actor: Brendan Cowell):

Theon Greyjoy: "I couldn't save her (Yara). I tried."
Harrag: "You wouldn't be here, if you tried." (Witty Insult)

23:55 (+3) Euron Greyjoy:

Jaime Lannister: "...if you turn on us, they'll cheer to have your severed head mounted on a spike."
Euron: "Or yours. They just like severed heads, really." (Threat)

24:08 (+3) Euron Greyjoy:

to Jaime: "Does she like it gentle, or rough? A finger in the bum? Shh, shh, shh, shh, not now. We'll talk later." (Funny Line)

submitted by jbornstein89 (approved!)

58:00 (+3) Olenna Redwyne (Grandma Tyrell):

Jaime Lannister: "There are always lessons in failures."
Olenna Tyrell: "Yes. You must be very wise by now." (Witty Insult)

Glasses of Wine Consumed

61:05 (+5) Olenna Redwyne (Grandma Tyrell):

Olenna drinks the glass of poisoned wine provided by Jaime, after the Tyrells are defeated at Highgarden.

Olenna: "Will there be pain?"
Jaime: "No, I made sure of that."
Olenna: "That's good." (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Special

20:58 (+3) Euron Greyjoy:

to Yara: "Look at them, cheering for a Greyjoy. I have to be honest, this is making me hard." (Special)

22:57 (+3) Euron Greyjoy:

Cersei: "You've proven yourself the greatest captain of the Fourteen Seas." (Special)

24:08 (+3) Euron Greyjoy:

to Jaime: "Does she like it gentle, or rough? A finger in the bum? Shh, shh, shh, shh, not now. We'll talk later." (Special)

49:22 (+12) Archmaester Ebrose:

Archmaester Ebrose: "You treated him?"
Samwell Tarly: "Yes."
Ebrose: "Who told you to treat him?"
Sam: "No one."
Ebrose: "Who forbade you, or anyone, to attempt to treat him?"
Sam: "I seem to remember you."
Ebrose: "But you treated him anyway?"
Sam: "I did, yes." (Special)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

11 more comments - see full thread

what's the point of adding it if it's only 2 points per scene? When he's only in about 1 scene per episode anyway. -ssleppy

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2017 Aug 2
Hodor didn't have a cap. Cercei and Tyrion don't have caps on drink points. I like the idea of his new special. -ssleppy

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2017 Aug 2
So far he's scored 24pts off this Special, which leads the category but I wouldn't consider to be game-breaking. It's definitely a very good special, but still far shy of the uber powerful ones like Hodor's or Doran's. It's similar to Jon's special actually, in that he reliably gets it multiple times an episode (especially back in S1-4). -nyan

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2017 Aug 2 ssleppy and Lem Lemoncake like this

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