Matchup: Night is Dark and Full of Turnips vs the (Wooden) Sword of the Morning for Ep 6

/r/asoiaf

Night is Dark and Full of Turnips (toddnorman91)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics
White Walker (Night King) The leader of the White Walkers.	#10	16	10	6
Brienne of Tarth A skilled fighter and heir to House Tarth. After swearing an oath to Catelyn Stark, she continues her mission to ensure the safety of the Stark girls.	#11	0	0	0
Randyll Tarly Samwell Tarly's disapproving father. He is the Lord of House Tarly, and was one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros.	#30	0	0	0
Salladhor Saan A Pirate Lord from the Lys, a free city of Essos. He is an old friend of Ser Davos Seaworth and fought for Stannis in the Battle of the Blackwater.	#70	0	0	0
Daario Naharis Leader of the Second Sons, a sellsword company who now serves Daenerys Targaryen. He is also one of Daneerys' trusted advisors and her lover, but has been left behind in Meereen to govern the city.	#31	0	0	0
Anya Waynwood Head of House Waynewood, bannermen to House Arryn.	#71	0	0	0
Aeron Greyjoy An uncle of Theon Greyjoy, who serves as a priest to the Drowned God.	#50	0	0	0
Olyvar A former prostitute, Olyvar now manages Littlefinger's brothels while he is away in the Eyrie. He plays a key role in the Sparrows' indictment and imprisonment of Loras Tyrell.	#51	0	0	0
Totals		16	10	6

the (Wooden) Sword of the Morning (ben.j.duly)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Special
Jon Snow Recently declared King in the North, he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, and formerly served as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch before he was betrayed by his fellow men.	#3	95	86	3	3	3
Beric Dondarrion Lord of Blackhaven, bannermen to House Baratheon. He leads the Brotherhood Without Banners, an outlaw fighting group in the Riverlands.	#18	82	70	3	0	9
Jaqen H'ghar The leader of the Faceless Men of Braavos, and a skilled assassin. He trains Arya to become an assassin in the House of Black and White, although she later leaves his training to return to Westeros.	#43	0	0	0	0	0
Yezzan zo Qaggaz (slave trader) A slave trader from Yunkai. He briefly owns Jorah Mormont, who he brings to the fighting pits of Meereen, and is present during the slavers' attack on Meereen. He is the only slave master spared by Daenerys, who sends him to Astapor with a message for those who would oppose the Mother of Dragons.	#58	0	0	0	0	0
Varys Formerly the Master of Whisperers in King's Landing, Varys now pulls the political strings for Daenerys Targaryen, arranging alliances with the Westerosi Houses Tyrell and Martell. He controls a vast network of spies.	#23	0	0	0	0	0
Gilly A wildling who lived north of the Wall. After she befriended Samwell Tarly, she escaped with him to Castle Black, and has sailed to Oldtown with Samwell as he begins his Maester's training.	#38	0	0	0	0	0
Alys Karstark	#78	0	0	0	0	0
Hot Pie An orphan from King's Landing. He works at the Inn at the Crossroads as a baker.	#63	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		177	156	6	3	12

Kills

26:02 (+5) Beric Dondarrion:

Beric smacks his flaming sword onto the wight bear, setting it on fire. (Major Injury of Named Character)

Ah, named character "The Wight Bear" -derekjjjj

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2017 Aug 23 theripleymanor likes this
His name was Jeremy and he was a good bear. -theripleymanor

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2017 Aug 24 jake.kmiech, nyan, hkeseyan, emilien.raggi, 2 others like this
To clarify, this is following along from the "boss fight" criteria that upgrades the status of these characters even if they have no name.

But I like Jeremy, I may add him into the draftables for future rewatch seasons. -nyan

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2017 Aug 24 jake.kmiech, emilien.raggi, Lem Lemoncake like this

27:36 (+1) Beric Dondarrion:

Beric applies his flaming sword to cauterize the chest wounds suffered by Thoros at the paws of the wight bear. (Minor Injury of Named Character)

32:56 (+2) Beric Dondarrion:

Beric slices through a wight during the ambush on the White Walker scouting party. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

33:06 (+10) Jon Snow:

After dodging a blow, Jon slices through the White Walker leading the scouting party with Longclaw, shattering it to pieces. (Kill of Named Character)

33:07 (+14) Jon Snow:

7 of the wights in the scouting party disintegrate after Jon kills the White Walker leading them.
(Kill of Unnamed Character)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

15 more comments - see full thread

It feels incredibly unfair to not count the deaths as kills. Those 7 Wights died as a result of a combat situation, the kills need to be attributed. The surrender analogy does not work, in a normal situation the surrendering soldiers would be taken captive because they are alive and still functioning. In this scenario the wights couldn't be captured because they were destroyed due to Jon's actions, the wight they DID capture can more accurately be seen as a surrender. If anything, this resembles an execution of prisoners, where Jon passed the judgement and swung the sword.

Also I agree that it is unfair to remove the points after a week, where no new arguments were brought up to strengthen the case for removal. -brandonthebigB

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2017 Aug 28 hindsight44 likes this
When soldiers surrender you have gained an asset or at the very least levrage. There is a specific advantage to gaining surrendered soldiers that is not at play here. They were once functional wights that would kill any living thing and now theyre nothing. The rules state that kills are counted regardless of reason. Jon Snows actions directly led those 7 wights dying........again -hindsight44

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2017 Aug 28
Yeah the delay in scoring update is my bad, I've ended up on another spotty-internet week during travel for this one and wasn't able to do these earlier. The summer run for S7 has really caused some conflicts with travel, I'll have to figure out the S8 schedule much better.

I think you guys are right from a scorekeeping purity standpoint. The wights went from soldiers to being dead because of this action, to call it a surrender can work as a stretch but yes, it is a stretch we'd be making to find a way to discount the points. I started thinking about parallel examples, with a very basic kill switch action that causes large numbers of deaths. You might say Bronn igniting the Blackwater Bay wildfire, or a hypothetical Qyburn's little bird igniting the wildfire underneath the Sept of Baelor, and I think most players would readily accept those as valid scores.

Giving it some further thought, I did have that same first impression of "cheapness" as most of the others who initially commented. I think that comes from having such a directly comparable set of kills in the exact same scene - the Hound, Tormund, Jorah, et. al. are busy hacking away at the wights for their measly 1-2 kills each, and then Jon swoops in with an easy 7-kill swing. But it can be fine that some kills are cheaper than others, and while a jackpot scenario may exist in the future with whoever takes down the Night King, it's a much more equitable free-for-all for any character to achieve, unlike say Daenerys' dragon roastings.

Perhaps with better per-league tools, we can again have multiple rulesets for S8 that could include or exclude the wight-follower kills.

Anyhow for this one, I'll go back to the original decision which is to count the 7 as kills. -nyan

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2017 Aug 29 brandonthebigB, jake.kmiech, hindsight44, emilien.raggi like this

47:17 (+34) Jon Snow:

Jon cuts down 17 wights in the ensuing battle as the Night King's Army of the Dead descends upon the group, up until Daenerys and her dragons arrive. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

47:29 (+62) Beric Dondarrion:

Beric cuts down 31 wights in the ensuing battle as the Night King's Army of the Dead descends upon the group. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

52:39 (+20) Jon Snow:

Jon realizes he is currently only 4th place on the Kills leaderboard, and climbs back down off of Drogon to score 10 more wight kills in garbage time, as all the others wisely get onboard. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

53:35 (+10) White Walker (Night King):

The Night King launches a perfect javelin toss, striking Viserion right in the neck and bringing him crashing straight down into the icy lake. (Kill of Named Character)

11 more comments - see full thread

I think everyone is missing the point here about the dragon kill. This is fantasy Game of Thrones, we are never going to accurately score each character for how much impact they truly have on the show. 1) because this is fantasy and we have to have rigid rules to score points for events instead of retroactively assigning point values to things and 2) because impact is subjective and we will never fully agree on who has more impact

The thing everyone who is complaining about points that characters deserve for certain events is sorely missing is that in fantasy we need to settle on points awarded for certain events and then the players play the game around that. Everyone knew ahead of time that killing a dragon would be 10 points. Everyone knew that drinking wine is 5 points and full frontal nudity is 20. Everyone knew that killing 5 random characters is the same as killing 1 named character no matter how tough or important they are. Playing fantasy Game of Thrones is a skill in and of itself, and whoever pays the most attention to those specific rules should be rewarded. If you drafted the Night King because you thought he is ultimately more powerful than someone like Jaime who has one hand, you made a terrible mistake by overlooking the fact that Jaime can drink, have sex, say good lines, rack up specials, have more screen time, while the Night King rarely does killing with his own hands, doesn't talk, have sex, or drink.

It is Nathan's job as the runner of this site to ensure that 1) the game is competitive and fair within its intended scope and 2) points are being counted for what they were implied to be counted for when people drafted their characters. You can say killing a dragon is more of a power than Sam reading 4 books but the fact remains that drafting the Night King with the hopes that a dragon kill would win your season was a bad fantasy move. -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 24 jake.kmiech, emilien.raggi, emilyjmahar, WampaLord, 2 others like this
Where our discussions about points should happen is in events where there is ambiguity or a dispute in whether or not something satisfies a condition for awarding points on an event. No one is denying a dragon was killed. You could've looked back and did your research and seen that killing giants and white walkers were the same number of points. -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 24 jedjackoway, jake.kmiech, emilien.raggi like this
What hkeseyan said <3 and I'd like to add that exactely this, for me personally at least, is what brings the fun into this: the seeming arbitrariness. That Doran Martell can have his one episode in which he does a few steps on his own to prove a point then die and score hugely for that single episode but never before or after. This is also one of the reasons why I now prefer H2H to Roto. I have Dany in my team and obviously have the by far highest overall scoring. Still, I don't lead my H2H league, because I lost the pre-dragonsofmassdestruction-episodes :> -Lem Lemoncake

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2017 Aug 25

54:34 (+8) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow cuts down four wights after witnessing Viseron's death, before realizing that trying to cut his way to the Night King for a 1v1 was a terrible idea and that he should really get back to the dragon evac. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

Political Wins

33:58 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow and his crew successfully ambush the White Walker scouting party, killing the leader and capturing the live wight they were looking for. (Victorious Battle)

39:38 (+3) Beric Dondarrion:

Beric says a brief prayer for Thoros after they discover him perished in the night. "Lord of Light, show us the way. Come to us in our darkness and lead your servant into the light ... Lord of Light, come to us in our darkness. For the night is dark and full of terrors." (House Words)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

Same argument as for jon, did you already scored this for melissandre or another priestess (or even beric before? I don't recall if he already said that in previous seasons) ? -emilien.raggi

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2017 Aug 23
This was added as House Words for "religious leaders", from the rulebook:

> Religious leaders (not basic worshippers) also have "dual citizenship", gaining points for their common religious phrases.

I think it could be argued Beric is not technically a priest, however he's the most ardent Lord of Light fanatic we have going now. -nyan

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2017 Aug 23 emilien.raggi and jedjackoway like this
Okay I agree then, it makes sense :) -emilien.raggi

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2017 Aug 24

55:20 (+3) White Walker (Night King):

The Night King's Army of the Dead overwhelm Jon Snow's party, forcing them to evacuate by dragon and taking down one of Daenerys Targaryen's dragons, Viserion, in the process. (Victorious Battle)

70:13 (+3) White Walker (Night King):

After having Viseron's body salvaged from the icy lake, the Night King reanimates the dragon as a wight. (New Follower/Prisoner)

Yeaah Dany will lose Viserion and the Night King will gain a Special for all of wight-Viserion's actions. -nyan

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2017 Aug 23 bookworm13457, jedjackoway, ehbud25, vjdev2015, 3 others like this
Does this include the dead body reappearing bonus? -jake.kmiech

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2017 Aug 23
Hmmmm good question. My feeling is that wight-Viserion will not count as a "dead body appearance", it potentially disrupts that category too much? -nyan

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2017 Aug 23 jake.kmiech and emilien.raggi like this
In the appearance at the end of the episode, Viserion was dead so it could be an appearance.... now it is awake/undead, so from now on no dead body appearances? Just like Jon, Beric, Mountain, Benjen -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 23 brandonthebigB, jake.kmiech, vjdev2015, nyan, 2 others like this
Makes sense to me. The dead points go to Dany, then, as it wasn't under the Night King's spell yet. If it dies again, the points should go to the Night King, though -jake.kmiech

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2017 Aug 23 vjdev2015, emilien.raggi, nyan, kimbo like this
Yeah, I agree with hkeseyan and jake.kmiech -emilien.raggi

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2017 Aug 23

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

4:16 (+3) Jon Snow:

Tormund Giantsbane: "I can breathe again. Down south the air smells like pigshit."
Jon Snow: "You've never been down south."
Tormund: "I've been to Winterfell."
Jon: "That's the North." (Funny Line)

Special

25:49 (+3) Beric Dondarrion:

Beric lights his sword on fire as the wight bear descends on the party. (Special)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

It was badass, but I assume they're gonna do it in every fight, which would include some automatism as well? I liked the part where Beric lit up his sword to burn out Thoros' wound - if I understood that correctly :D So maybe a special would be points for every time lighting up a sword for non-fighting purposes. However, I have no idea if this will ever happen again.
Generally, the swordsonfire are fooken awesome, so I'd be fine with them getting points for it, even if it means to automatic extra points for every fight. -Lem Lemoncake

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2017 Aug 22
I was thinking the ignition scenes where they are shown lighting it up, but not just for the flaming sword being already on. -nyan

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2017 Aug 22 Lem Lemoncake likes this
I like that special as well. -talindsey

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2017 Aug 22
When he burnt Thoros' wound, it was already on fire from the fight with the bear -emilien.raggi

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2017 Aug 22
I forgot I had already given Beric one for everytime he fights with the flaming sword. I'm going to just change it to the ignition - it's a cooler moment than just seeing him in the background with the sword, and the points should be the same (he had 1 fight scene without showing the ignition, but also ignited it once to burn Thoros' body which wasn't a fight). -nyan

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2017 Aug 23 jake.kmiech and emilien.raggi like this

40:06 (+3) Beric Dondarrion:

Beric lights up his flaming sword to cremate the remains of Thoros of Myr. (Special)

47:04 (+3) Beric Dondarrion:

Beric lights up his firesaber as the wight army approaches over the re-frozen ice. (Special)

54:59 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow drops Longclaw on the frozen ice sheet after he is tackled under water by the wights during the dragon evacuation. (Special)

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