Matchup: Little Finger's Wisdom vs ThePointyEnd for Ep 4

Little Finger's Wisdom (ayolaiye84)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Special
Bronn A former sellsword, who has risen through the ranks of nobility thanks to his fighting skills and work for the Lannisters. He has accompanied Jaime Lannister on his missions to Dorne and Riverrun.	#20	36	21	3	9	3
Arya Stark The youngest of the Stark girls. Recently having completed her training as an assassin in the House of Black and White, she has set sail to return to Westeros to pursue her revenge.	#5	12	0	9	3	0
Robin Arryn The young, sickly son of the late Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully. He is Lord of the Vale, although he is easily manipualted by Lord Petyr Baelish, who serves as Lord Protector until he comes of age.	#44	0	0	0	0	0
Gregor Clegane (The Mountain) A knight and the head of House Clegane, he serves as a member of the Kingsguard and Cersei's personal muscle. He is a massive and impossibly strong warrior, although he remains speechless and zombie-like ever since being wounded in a Trial by Combat against Oberyn Martell.	#8	0	0	0	0	0
Randyll Tarly Samwell Tarly's disapproving father. He is the Lord of House Tarly, and was one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros.	#32	0	0	0	0	0
Tyene Sand The youngest of Oberyn Martell's bastard children, known as the Sand Snakes. She uses daggers and poisons as her weapons.	#41	0	0	0	0	0
Samwell Tarly A steward of the Night's Watch, Samwell has been sent south to Oldtown to begin his training as a Maester. He is a close friend to Jon Snow, and one of the few people known to have killed a White Walker.	#29	0	0	0	0	0
Varys Formerly the Master of Whisperers in King's Landing, Varys now pulls the political strings for Daenerys Targaryen, arranging alliances with the Westerosi Houses Tyrell and Martell. He controls a vast network of spies.	#17	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		48	21	12	12	3

ThePointyEnd (grk101)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults
Daenerys Targaryen Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Mother of Dragons and Breaker of Chains. With her three dragons and army of Unsullied soldiers she carved out an empire of liberated slave cities in the east, and she now sets her sights westward as she sails for the Seven Kingdoms to reclaim the Iron Throne.	#1	243	234	6	3
Bran Stark The fourth of the Stark children. A greenseer and a warg, Bran has mystical visions of the future and past, and has the ability to leap into the minds of others to control them - power he is only beginning to tap into. After having encountered the Three-Eyed Raven and the Night King in the far north, he now flees back south to the Wall.	#13	6	0	3	3
Yara Greyjoy Theon's older sister, Yara was raised on the Iron Islands as a true Ironborn. She is a fearsome fighter and commands a longship of her own. After her uncle Euron Greyjoy seizes control of the Iron Islands, she flees with Theon and her loyal troops to ally with Daenerys Targaryen, whose dragons and armies sail west to retake Westeros.	#24	0	0	0	0
Meera Reed The eldest child of Howland Reed, bannerman to the Starks. She assists Bran in his journeys north of the Wall and is the only other surviving member of his party.	#37	0	0	0	0
Sam (Gilly's Baby) The incestuous son of Gilly and her father Craster. He travels with Gilly as she accompanies Samwell Tarly to Oldtown.	#48	0	0	0	0
Benjen Stark The First Ranger of the Night's Watch, Benjen has been lost for some time North of the Wall after being attacked by White Walkers while north of the Wall. After being saved by the Children of the Forest, he exists in an undead state, unable to pass back south of the Wall.	#25	0	0	0	0
White Walker (Night King) The leader of the White Walkers.	#12	0	0	0	0
Missandei A freed slave from Astapor, who serves Daenerys as an advisor and translator.	#36	0	0	0	0
Totals		249	234	9	6

Kills

40:10 (+66) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys, riding on Drogon's back, breaks the line of Lannister soldiers with a breath of fire. "Dracarys." (Kill of Unnamed Character)

33 soldiers killed in the opening salvo:

25 visible on the Lannnister line - http://imgur.com/0qEMB2F
8 visible fleeing behind the line - http://imgur.com/1xqyL2U

Full screencap log of Drogon kills - http://imgur.com/gallery/2zESi

The scoring methodology is similar to ones previous used for mass-kill scenes like the Battle of Blackwater, and the Sept of Baelor explosion, and Drogon's previous fights. All visible bodies that are dying or dead from the particular kill method are counted up (not too much debate this episode, since there were no other fire-wielders). However no further assumptions or speculations are made that a larger group must've died.

For instance in this event, the two shots cover all the visible soldiers - while one may reasonably assume that there are more burned soldiers along the line that are not visible behind the fireball, we can't see them and therefore they won't contribute to the kill count. -nyan

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2017 Aug 8 righteous, jake.kmiech, Lem Lemoncake, jgiuliano like this
Shouldn't Drogon get these points, not Daenerys? She was just riding him. :) -kyaathecatlord

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2017 Aug 10
Yeah, just read Daenerys' game breaking rules. No point playing this unless you have her so... -kyaathecatlord

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2017 Aug 10
People keep saying this ^ but I am literally 7th in my league rn even with Dany. Like all y'all need to chill -e.a.givney

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2017 Aug 10 Lem Lemoncake, alicehanners, jedjackoway, Laxis, 2 others like this

41:43 (+68) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys and Drogon make a strafing run on the Lannister caravan, torching 34 soldiers and a dozen loot wagons in the process. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

34 soldiers in this overhead strafing run:

8 unsuspecting soldiers fighting off the Dothraki screamers - http://imgur.com/GDoImMo
5 in first overhead sequence - http://imgur.com/gddiaYS
3 in second overhead sequence - http://imgur.com/6CsF3JL
2 in third overhead sequence - http://imgur.com/0cPmxxT
5 in fourth overhead sequence - http://imgur.com/wRELUKt
5 in fifth overhead sequence, second breath - http://imgur.com/b5iMLBe
2 in sixth overhead sequence, second breath - http://imgur.com/lSZiCfZ
4 in landscape shot, third breath - http://imgur.com/JkZrF5H
alternate angle showing no collateral off-road damage in landscape shot -
http://imgur.com/2rXABWj

Full screencap of Drogon kills - http://imgur.com/gallery/2zESi -nyan

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2017 Aug 8 righteous, Lem Lemoncake, jgiuliano like this
Why is Daenerys getting points for another named characters kills? Drogon deserves these points, not his passenger.

And this even nails my point: "Full screencap of Drogon kills - http://imgur.com/gallery/2zESi -nyan " It isn't Daenerys killing these characters, its DROGON. He's an intelligent being in the storyline. -kyaathecatlord

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2017 Aug 10
All the dragons actions are attributed to Dany. clearly says it in her special. -hindsight44

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2017 Aug 10 kimberly.ramia likes this
Doesn't make the fact that she just got four seasons worth of points in one episode any less gamebreaking. -kyaathecatlord

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2017 Aug 10
Bruh Arya got 108 in one episode lol -e.a.givney

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2017 Aug 10 kimberly.ramia likes this

42:39 (+36) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys and Drogon begin a second strafing run after a volley of arrows from Jaime Lannister's archers fail to have any effect. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

18 killed in the second strafing run:

7 in the strafing shot http://imgur.com/llrvfXd
4 running away and getting scorched - http://imgur.com/UIMLpnN
1 soldier engulfed in fire - http://imgur.com/rsbOE7S
3 burning bodies - http://imgur.com/dAdovFb
3 more burning bodies - http://imgur.com/kzeKDwy

Full screencap log of Drogon kills - http://imgur.com/gallery/2zESi -nyan

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2017 Aug 8 righteous, Lem Lemoncake, jgiuliano like this
I don't think we should count the bodies that are already burning. There's a very good chance these are bodies that were already counted from the initial blast. If we don't see them burnt from a specific blast (and not repeat shots of the same blast - which you did an excellent job of not counting those, by the way), then I don't think we should count them -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 8 IPKOB, playabills, emilien.raggi, charles.e.r.coutu, 2 others like this
I don't think we should count the bodies that are already burning. There's a very good chance these are bodies that were already counted from the initial blast. If we don't see them burnt from a specific blast (and not repeat shots of the same blast - which you did an excellent job of not counting those, by the way), then I don't think we should count them -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 8 IPKOB, playabills, emilien.raggi like this
p.s. I'm referring to #79-84 -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 8
Why is Daenerys getting points for another named characters kills? Drogon deserves these points, not his passenger. -kyaathecatlord

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2017 Aug 10
Since this one shows up a little earlier in the event log, an extended discussion of the counting methodology for Dany/Drogon's kills can be found here: http://fantasora.com/event/3448 -nyan

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2017 Aug 18

44:07 (+6) Daenerys Targaryen:

As Bronn runs through the chaos of the battlefield, he shoves aside a burning Lannister soldier and encounters two other burning men. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

44:16 (+2) Bronn:

Bronn unsheathes a sword out of the torso of an impaled, flailing Lannister soldier, inflicting the fatal damage on the way out. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

44:18 (+4) Bronn:

Bronn runs through the chaos of the battlefield to make his way over to the Scorpion, cutting down two Dothraki screamers with the sword he takes from the torso of an impaled Lannister soldier. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

44:56 (+10) Bronn:

Bronn blows away the Dothraki screamer with a bolt from the Scorpion. (Kill of Named Character)

http://imgur.com/x1lUuOZ

Full screencap log of Bronn kills - http://imgur.com/gallery/Lpbfn -nyan

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2017 Aug 8
Do we still have the Boss Fight criteria for calling it named? If so, I think this one ought to count. These two were engaged for the entirety of this scene. -jedjackoway

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2017 Aug 8 nyan and dlapato like this
@jedjackoway I was really thinking about the boss fight criteria here, and originally I felt like this was just on the cusp of it. It was definitely more than the 2pt kill of the other extras, but then again the existing precedent for the 10pt "boss fight" was Jon Snow shattering a freaking White Walker into pieces at Hardhome. So this lived somewhere in between.

However they did feature the guy prominently, and the guy did have that utterly badass moment where he sliced the leg off of Bronn's horse. So I think we'll roll with it as a boss fight kill, and perhaps this can give a further criteria to what makes someone a "boss fight" character - characters who are featured in their own badass fighting moments or are shown to be wrecking the other extras. -nyan

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2017 Aug 18

46:03 (+22) Daenerys Targaryen:

Jaime surveys the losing battle, witnessing a field of Lannister soldiers being burned alive. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

3 burning soldiers in the field - http://imgur.com/BPYtj95
3 burning soldiers near water - http://imgur.com/dq6a1yV
5 burning soldiers as one removes his helmet and tries to make it to the water - http://imgur.com/3Ci9J1h

Full screencap log of Drogon kills - http://imgur.com/gallery/2zESi -nyan

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2017 Aug 8 jgiuliano and kimberly.ramia like this
Again, bodies burning without showing the blast = high chance we are double-counting -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 8 mrudd27, playabills, emilien.raggi, IPKOB, 3 others like this
Why is Daenerys getting points for another named characters kills? Drogon deserves these points, not his passenger. -kyaathecatlord

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2017 Aug 10

46:31 (+32) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys and Drogon go on a third strafing run, flying over the river and targeting Jaime Lannister's position. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

44 more comments - see full thread

Reading over the complaint of the few using direct scoring... I'm not convinced that should be my problem. I need all the points possible if I'm going to win overall, even though I'm in direct H2H. -righteous

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2017 Aug 15
Alright, here is the final resolution on this.

I see the problems caused by Daenerys' mega-event performance for the season-long Direct-Scoring leagues, and it seems unlikely that I'll convince most of these leagues to switch over into a new scoring format. To offer a pragmatic and generic solution specifically for these leagues, I've created a new Ruleset 5.0b, which is the same as Ruleset 5.0 except that it offers a per-episode point cap on character performance. Currently this cap has been hit only twice, with Daenerys getting a -143pt adjustment in E4 and Arya getting a -11 adjustment in E1.

You can preview these new scores on the Episode and League pages by appending the ?rulesetId=11 argument into the url. For example: http://fantasora.com/game/1/season/8/subunit/4?rulesetId=11

League Admins can switch the Ruleset at any time by visiting the Edit League page. I'd discuss this with the other players in your Leagues before unilaterally moving to it, but the choice is there for any League Admins.

In general, the counting methodology and Daenerys' points will remain as-is, which is that a classification of a body as "duplicate" will require some evidence that they are duplicates (unique insignia on the armor, or perhaps pinpointing exact locations). To that end, the arguments made in this thread weren't convincing enough, in light of the multiple Drogon strikes for which the impacts are not shown, and all the wagons being a fairly generic design (so "these two scenes both feature burning soldiers with wagons nearby" is not really credible when wagons were ubiquitous across the battlefield).

Hopefully this provides a clear counting methodology for the future, and provides an adequately balanced solution for the direct-scoring leagues this season. Roto and H2H leagues, as previously discussed, ought to handle the disputed ~30pts swing inherently with their scoring formats. -nyan

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2017 Aug 18 hindsight44, emilien.raggi, hkeseyan like this
Thank you nyan, this is a great solution -emilien.raggi

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2017 Aug 18 hkeseyan likes this

47:34 (+5) Bronn:

After a miss on his first shot, Bronn strikes a bolt from the Scorpio into Drogon's right shoulder, sending him spiraling out of control and forcing Daenerys to the ground. (Major Injury of Named Character)

49:08 (+4) Daenerys Targaryen:

Drogon gets to roasts two consolation horses after Bronn tackles Jaime Lannnister out of the way from his ill-fated charge at Daenerys. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

Political Wins

7:56 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran receives Lord Baelish's Valyrian steel dagger, which was used in an attempt to assassinate him in Season 1.

Petyr Baelish: "This is for you. The last man who wielded meant to cut your throat, but your mother fought him off." (New Weapon)

13:00 (+3) Arya Stark:

Arya convinces the Winterfell guards to allow her into the castle: "I'm getting into this castle one way or another. If I'm not who I say I am, I won't last long. But if I am, and Sansa finds you've turned me away..." (Convincing Argument)

19:51 (+3) Arya Stark:

At the Stark sibling reunion party, Bran regifts Littlefinger's Valyrian steel dagger to Arya.

Arya: "Are you sure? It's Valyrian steel."
Bran: "It's wasted on a cripple." (New Weapon)

29:38 (+3) Arya Stark:

Arya asserts that Brienne's vow means that she serves her as well, compelling her to engage in a sparring match. "You swore to serve both my mother's daughters, didn't you?" (New Follower/Prisoner)

Not quite as formal as bending the knee to Sansa, but a pretty strong assertion and following through on the command for Arya. -nyan

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2017 Aug 8 jake.kmiech likes this
I would like to argue this is not gaining a new follower. Arya already knew Brienne had sworn her sword to her as we knew with the fight for the Hound. After she defeated the Hound Arya had to hide from Brienne because she was do dedicated to serving Arya.

Compare this to when Arya met with Nymeria this season. Nymeria showed zero interest in following Arya and decided to take her own path. Yet Arya still got points for a new army points. Even though Nymeria has shown she considers herself independent. This set the precedent that the follower/ followee relationship is set regardless of the followee wants the help of the follower. In short its not right that Nymeria is follower of Arya even though Nymeria rejected Arya and that Brienne isnt a follower of Arya because Arya rejected her. By the precedent set by the show Brienne has been a follower of Arya since her encounter with the Hound not this episode. If anythinf Arya is now Briennes follower in the sense that Arya wants to learn from Brienne how to fight. -hindsight44

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2017 Aug 8
Clarification for Nymeria - it was Nymeria who acquired the "new army" of wolves, however all of these points transferred to Arya only because of her special ability which is that she gets points for anything Nymeria does. If Nymeria and Arya were separately draftable characters, Nymeria would have gotten the new army points and Arya would have gotten zero points for that scene.

If a character rejects a follower/title/castle/etc, it will not count. For example in S7E3 when Bran rejected Sansa naming him Lord of Winterfell. While Brienne made the pledge earlier and tried to assert it in the battle with the Hound, this is the first moment when Arya actually accepts that servitude. -nyan

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2017 Aug 8 jake.kmiech likes this
In S6E5 Dany stops Jorah from leaving and commands him to cure his greyscale. Previous to this point Jorah had been exiled and rejected by Dany. Yet she didnt get any points for new follower. -hindsight44

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2017 Aug 8
If/when Jorah gets back to Dany and pledges his services again, she would get him back as a follower. -nyan

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2017 Aug 8 jake.kmiech and Lem Lemoncake like this

40:04 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

Ignoring the stern advice of Tyrion and all her other advisors, Daenerys finally puts herself and her dragons into action, riding Drogon into the field of battle to attack the Lannister caravan. (Executive Decision)

45:01 (+3) Bronn:

Bronn arrives to the wagon and unveils the Scorpion, a high-powered dragon-killing ballista. (New Weapon)

Ifhe gets points for this, wouldn't he--and everyone else--get points every time they use someone else's weapon? -alicehanners

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2017 Aug 9
The Scorpion is a notable weapon. If Jon drops Longclaw and Tormund or a White Walker pick it up to use briefly, they would get New Weapon points.

I see a point though that the weapon is already in possession of the Lannister army, and Bronn is simply a soldier in it. We'll see if it comes up again, I agree that if it's the same Scorpion and there's a second battle and we see Bronn firing it, it feels like a double count. I think a second Scorpion would be okay though. -nyan

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2017 Aug 10 hkeseyan likes this
I think the "noteable" aspect is important. Maybe we can find some case examples for the various faces of "noteable". I'd suggest:
- weapon has a fancy name such as Longclaw, Widow's Wail, Ice, whatever
- we see the weapon being handed over to someone in a festive or whatever special manner, such as Tywin handing out these Swords to Joff and Jaime or the Old Bear to Jon
- weapon is gained and has an important impact on something such as the Scorpion on the battle last episode; another possibility could be that someone recognizes a special weapon (such as Littlefinger's dagger) etc.

What I'm aiming at is that the "New Weapon" rule shouldn't apply to any new weapon that is being picked up by someone during a fight but to an event that has a noteable impact on the story or adds to the worldbuilding/mythology/lore of ASoIaF. -Lem Lemoncake

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2017 Aug 12 nyan likes this
Yep, the notable condition is already in the rulebook, but kind of sparse on examples and these are some great ones. In general I think having a name or otherwise being talked about specifically by characters has been a good benchmark so far. -nyan

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2017 Aug 12 Lem Lemoncake likes this

49:30 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

Although Drogon is injured, Daenerys and her Dothraki horde are successful in attacking the wagon train of Tyrell loot and breaking the Lannister army. (Victorious Battle)

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

0:00 (+3) Bran Stark:

Bran interrupts Littlefinger's meddling mind games as soon as Littlefinger mentions chaos with a comeback that leaves Littlefinger speechless and his underpants soiled: "Chaos is a ladder" (Threat)

submitted by hkeseyan (approved!)

0:00 (+3) Bronn:

Jaime to Bronn: Besides think of the upkeep, the more you own the more it weighs you down.

Bronn To Jaime: Is that why you're so glum eh? All your new riches weighing you down? (Witty Insult)

submitted by hindsight44 (approved!)

3:55 (+3) Bronn:

to Jaime: "You've just won the biggest prize in the world, what do you possibly have to be upset about? C'mon you can tell me - the Queen of Thorns give you one last prick in the balls before saying goodbye?" (Witty Insult)

21:02 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

Missandei: "Your Grace, there's still no word from the Unsullied."
Daenerys: "Soon, he (Grey Worm) will come back to you."
Missandei: "He better."
Daenerys: "What happened?"
Missandei: "Many things."
Daenerys: "... many things?" ? (Funny Line)

?? -Lem Lemoncake

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2017 Aug 8
Wouldn't Missandei get the points instead of Dany? Dany just repeats what Missandei said -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 8 alicehanners likes this
I would give missandei the points instead of dany, she is the funny one in this conversation -emilien.raggi

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2017 Aug 8 alicehanners likes this
Yeah it's a bit of a toss up, or perhaps we should double count them for both? For me, if the scene ends on Missandei's line it's not that funny of a dialogue. It's Daenerys' line and then the knowing glances they exchange that make the scene. -nyan

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2017 Aug 8 Lem Lemoncake, jake.kmiech, dopeghoti, jayson.the.pirate like this
I don't even consider this scene as funny as some of the funny lines that were rejected before, particularly last week. If it was up to me I would give no points. I can see however that some people thought it was funny, but definitely not funny to get double counted. There have been a lot wittier back-and-forth exchanges that did not get counted either for double nor even single points. -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 8 alicehanners likes this

29:56 (+3) Arya Stark:

Brienne: "You can't use that, My Lady, it's too small." (referring to Arya's sword, Needle)
Arya: "I won't cut you, don't worry." (Threat)

37:28 (+3) Bronn:

to Dickon Tarly: "Men shit themselves when they die, didn't they teach you that at fancy lad school?" (Witty Insult)

Special

39:38 (+3) Bronn:

Bronn: "Get back to King's Landing."
Jaime Lannister: "I'm not abandoning my army."
Bronn: "You're the commander, not a damn infantryman. Those fuckers are about to swamp us." (Special)

submitted by hindsight44 (approved!)

"Get back to King's Landing. You are the Commander and not a damned Infantry-man. Those F* are about to swamp us!" -Ser Vincent

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2017 Aug 10 hindsight44 and jayson.the.pirate like this
Also any update on Bronns special? He has talked alot of about fighting in episodes 4 and 5. I can think of two instances in both episodes. -hindsight44

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2017 Aug 14
This one was added, though it does feel like a slight dropping of the bar. In keeping with the spirit of previous Bronn scores, I think there is some aspect to Bronn's fighting expertise/experience that went into all his score-worthy lines, which you can see in his previous scores here: http://fantasora.com/char/23/

Like with Jorah's "encyclopedia of Essos" special, there was definitely this facet of their character where they would launch into their expertise of this area and give these specific comments that you would never hear from any other character. Examples:

* "Now that is a sorry attempt at a siege. *Someone needs to teach those sad twats how to dig trenches*."

* "Have your lads start digging perimeter trenches. Set pickets every hundred yards. And work double-time on those siege towers and trebuchets."

* "You want to learn that sort of fighting? ... *All right, let's start with your footwork...*"

* "A cloak slows you down in a fight, makes it hard to move quietly. And the gold catches the light, so you're nice and easy to spot at night."

I've added in the line here because it could be argued that the statement "those fuckers are about to swamp us" is a keen military insight that is unique to Bronn. But personally I can just as easily imagine the line being said by a Randyll Tarly or a random Lannister foot soldier. -nyan

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2017 Aug 18

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