Matchup: ThePointyEnd vs Eyes sealed shut forever for Ep 6

ThePointyEnd (grk101)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Deaths
Daenerys Targaryen Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Mother of Dragons and Breaker of Chains. With her three dragons and army of Unsullied soldiers she carved out an empire of liberated slave cities in the east, and she now sets her sights westward as she sails for the Seven Kingdoms to reclaim the Iron Throne.	#1	623	604	9	3	7
Benjen Stark The First Ranger of the Night's Watch, Benjen has been lost for some time North of the Wall after being attacked by White Walkers while north of the Wall. After being saved by the Children of the Forest, he exists in an undead state, unable to pass back south of the Wall.	#25	29	24	0	0	5
White Walker (Night King) The leader of the White Walkers.	#12	16	10	6	0	0
Missandei A freed slave from Astapor, who serves Daenerys as an advisor and translator.	#36	0	0	0	0	0
Meera Reed The eldest child of Howland Reed, bannerman to the Starks. She assists Bran in his journeys north of the Wall and is the only other surviving member of his party.	#37	0	0	0	0	0
Sam (Gilly's Baby) The incestuous son of Gilly and her father Craster. He travels with Gilly as she accompanies Samwell Tarly to Oldtown.	#48	0	0	0	0	0
Bran Stark The fourth of the Stark children. A greenseer and a warg, Bran has mystical visions of the future and past, and has the ability to leap into the minds of others to control them - power he is only beginning to tap into. After having encountered the Three-Eyed Raven and the Night King in the far north, he now flees back south to the Wall.	#13	0	0	0	0	0
Yara Greyjoy Theon's older sister, Yara was raised on the Iron Islands as a true Ironborn. She is a fearsome fighter and commands a longship of her own. After her uncle Euron Greyjoy seizes control of the Iron Islands, she flees with Theon and her loyal troops to ally with Daenerys Targaryen, whose dragons and armies sail west to retake Westeros.	#24	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		668	638	15	3	12

Eyes sealed shut forever (joy.okpala)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Special
Jon Snow Recently declared King in the North, he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, and formerly served as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch before he was betrayed by his fellow men.	#2	95	86	3	3	3
Jorah Mormont The exiled head of House Mormont. Jorah was previously one of Daenerys Targaryen's most trusted advisors before his banishment and subsequent infection with the fatal greyscale disease. As Daenerys leaves for Westeros, he wanders Essos in search of a cure.	#26	67	64	3	0	0
Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger) Lord Protector of the Vale, Littlefinger effectively controls the Knights of the Vale through the easily manipulated Robbin Arryn. He is a master manipulator who will stop at nothing for power.	#14	0	0	0	0	0
Melisandre A Red Priestess from Asshai, Melisandre has demonstrated mythical skill in blood magic, most recently reviving a deceased Jon Snow. After Davos Seaworth exposes her live sacrifice of the child Shireen Baratheon, she has been exiled by Jon Snow.	#23	0	0	0	0	0
Gilly A wildling who lived north of the Wall. After she befriended Samwell Tarly, she escaped with him to Castle Black, and has sailed to Oldtown with Samwell as he begins his Maester's training.	#40	0	0	0	0	0
Archmaester Ebrose Archmaester at the Citadel in Oldtown, where new Maesters are trained.	#47	0	0	0	0	0
Jaime Lannister The second of the Lannister children, he is Cersei's lover and twin brother, and also the father of her three (now deceased) bastard children, the supposed sons and daughters of the late King Robert Baratheon. He also serves as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.	#11	0	0	0	0	0
Podrick Payne A squire in the service of Brienne of Tarth. He previously served as Tyrion Lannister's squire.	#35	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		162	150	6	3	3

Kills

26:47 (+10) Jorah Mormont:

As the wight bear mauls a helpless Thoros, Jorah runs in to stab it with his dragonglass dagger, killing the bear and saving Thoros. (Kill of Named Character)

32:57 (+2) Jorah Mormont:

Jorah slices across a wight during the attack on the White Walker scouting party. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

33:06 (+10) Jon Snow:

After dodging a blow, Jon slices through the White Walker leading the scouting party with Longclaw, shattering it to pieces. (Kill of Named Character)

33:07 (+14) Jon Snow:

7 of the wights in the scouting party disintegrate after Jon kills the White Walker leading them.
(Kill of Unnamed Character)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

15 more comments - see full thread

It feels incredibly unfair to not count the deaths as kills. Those 7 Wights died as a result of a combat situation, the kills need to be attributed. The surrender analogy does not work, in a normal situation the surrendering soldiers would be taken captive because they are alive and still functioning. In this scenario the wights couldn't be captured because they were destroyed due to Jon's actions, the wight they DID capture can more accurately be seen as a surrender. If anything, this resembles an execution of prisoners, where Jon passed the judgement and swung the sword.

Also I agree that it is unfair to remove the points after a week, where no new arguments were brought up to strengthen the case for removal. -brandonthebigB

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2017 Aug 28 hindsight44 likes this
When soldiers surrender you have gained an asset or at the very least levrage. There is a specific advantage to gaining surrendered soldiers that is not at play here. They were once functional wights that would kill any living thing and now theyre nothing. The rules state that kills are counted regardless of reason. Jon Snows actions directly led those 7 wights dying........again -hindsight44

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2017 Aug 28
Yeah the delay in scoring update is my bad, I've ended up on another spotty-internet week during travel for this one and wasn't able to do these earlier. The summer run for S7 has really caused some conflicts with travel, I'll have to figure out the S8 schedule much better.

I think you guys are right from a scorekeeping purity standpoint. The wights went from soldiers to being dead because of this action, to call it a surrender can work as a stretch but yes, it is a stretch we'd be making to find a way to discount the points. I started thinking about parallel examples, with a very basic kill switch action that causes large numbers of deaths. You might say Bronn igniting the Blackwater Bay wildfire, or a hypothetical Qyburn's little bird igniting the wildfire underneath the Sept of Baelor, and I think most players would readily accept those as valid scores.

Giving it some further thought, I did have that same first impression of "cheapness" as most of the others who initially commented. I think that comes from having such a directly comparable set of kills in the exact same scene - the Hound, Tormund, Jorah, et. al. are busy hacking away at the wights for their measly 1-2 kills each, and then Jon swoops in with an easy 7-kill swing. But it can be fine that some kills are cheaper than others, and while a jackpot scenario may exist in the future with whoever takes down the Night King, it's a much more equitable free-for-all for any character to achieve, unlike say Daenerys' dragon roastings.

Perhaps with better per-league tools, we can again have multiple rulesets for S8 that could include or exclude the wight-follower kills.

Anyhow for this one, I'll go back to the original decision which is to count the 7 as kills. -nyan

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2017 Aug 29 brandonthebigB, jake.kmiech, hindsight44, emilien.raggi like this

47:17 (+34) Jon Snow:

Jon cuts down 17 wights in the ensuing battle as the Night King's Army of the Dead descends upon the group, up until Daenerys and her dragons arrive. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

47:20 (+52) Jorah Mormont:

Jorah cuts down 26 wights in the ensuing battle as the Night King's Army of the Dead descends upon the group. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

51:38 (+604) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys and her three dragons ride in to save the day for Jon Snow, Jorah, Tormund, the Hound, and Beric, laying waste to a massive number of wights with their dragonfire. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

7 more comments - see full thread

There is already a 100 point cap for raw scoring, and for the perspective of a head to head match, dany totaly deserve to win her match for a specific episode where she uses her dragons so 200 or 600 points doesn't make a difference, that's why she is ranked #1 for the draft. Go check the post about dany in episode 4 for more info. -emilien.raggi

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2017 Aug 24 jake.kmiech likes this
I agree with tommy James. There is not point limit on raw scoring. Danerys got 604 points for the dang dragons. The leader of our league is 800+ points ahead of 2nd -playabills

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2017 Aug 24
For this season it'll stay where it is, out of consistency/fairness. But as we approach the endgame of the show, where we may be getting a dragon-roasting every episode or in the majority of episodes, it does become more of a balance issue.

Some of it may take care of itself, as the dragons are now split off to competing allegiances (Viserion for the Night King, and other characters can steal the dragon points if they become a rider). But at most we still end up with 3 characters dominating the field. The dragons themselves could also be made individually draftable.

For Roto this problem takes care of itself - you can spend your likely first round pick on a dragon character, who might instantly put you top 3 in the Kills category, but will give you nothing else but that stat (a common tradeoff, and typically an inefficient one). For the other leagues, perhaps we may consider some alternative drafting options that will make them cost a fairer value (allow draft pick trading, or implement auction/salary cap leagues). Or perhaps a league may selectively ban certain characters from the draft list, or choose their own league-specific nerfs (e.g. all points from this OP character list will be halved or even 1/10th'd). Part of the problem is that people have an assessment that the dragons are somewhere between mildly to extremely OP, and it's hard to come up with a way to compensate for that without pinning the value, so for the site I think everyone will be more satisfied if the leagues/players have the options to set that nerfing value for themselves.

Doing the point cap thing, or coming up with an arbitrary fractional kill is my least preferred option, mostly from a stat-keeping purity standpoint. -nyan

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2017 Aug 24 jake.kmiech, alex.pi, Lem Lemoncake, hkeseyan like this

52:39 (+20) Jon Snow:

Jon realizes he is currently only 4th place on the Kills leaderboard, and climbs back down off of Drogon to score 10 more wight kills in garbage time, as all the others wisely get onboard. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

53:35 (+10) White Walker (Night King):

The Night King launches a perfect javelin toss, striking Viserion right in the neck and bringing him crashing straight down into the icy lake. (Kill of Named Character)

11 more comments - see full thread

I think everyone is missing the point here about the dragon kill. This is fantasy Game of Thrones, we are never going to accurately score each character for how much impact they truly have on the show. 1) because this is fantasy and we have to have rigid rules to score points for events instead of retroactively assigning point values to things and 2) because impact is subjective and we will never fully agree on who has more impact

The thing everyone who is complaining about points that characters deserve for certain events is sorely missing is that in fantasy we need to settle on points awarded for certain events and then the players play the game around that. Everyone knew ahead of time that killing a dragon would be 10 points. Everyone knew that drinking wine is 5 points and full frontal nudity is 20. Everyone knew that killing 5 random characters is the same as killing 1 named character no matter how tough or important they are. Playing fantasy Game of Thrones is a skill in and of itself, and whoever pays the most attention to those specific rules should be rewarded. If you drafted the Night King because you thought he is ultimately more powerful than someone like Jaime who has one hand, you made a terrible mistake by overlooking the fact that Jaime can drink, have sex, say good lines, rack up specials, have more screen time, while the Night King rarely does killing with his own hands, doesn't talk, have sex, or drink.

It is Nathan's job as the runner of this site to ensure that 1) the game is competitive and fair within its intended scope and 2) points are being counted for what they were implied to be counted for when people drafted their characters. You can say killing a dragon is more of a power than Sam reading 4 books but the fact remains that drafting the Night King with the hopes that a dragon kill would win your season was a bad fantasy move. -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 24 jake.kmiech, emilien.raggi, emilyjmahar, WampaLord, 2 others like this
Where our discussions about points should happen is in events where there is ambiguity or a dispute in whether or not something satisfies a condition for awarding points on an event. No one is denying a dragon was killed. You could've looked back and did your research and seen that killing giants and white walkers were the same number of points. -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 24 jedjackoway, jake.kmiech, emilien.raggi like this
What hkeseyan said <3 and I'd like to add that exactely this, for me personally at least, is what brings the fun into this: the seeming arbitrariness. That Doran Martell can have his one episode in which he does a few steps on his own to prove a point then die and score hugely for that single episode but never before or after. This is also one of the reasons why I now prefer H2H to Roto. I have Dany in my team and obviously have the by far highest overall scoring. Still, I don't lead my H2H league, because I lost the pre-dragonsofmassdestruction-episodes :> -Lem Lemoncake

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2017 Aug 25

54:34 (+8) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow cuts down four wights after witnessing Viseron's death, before realizing that trying to cut his way to the Night King for a 1v1 was a terrible idea and that he should really get back to the dragon evac. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

57:29 (+14) Benjen Stark:

Benjen knocks out 5 wights with his flaming flail and his horse runs over 2 more while he rides in to the ice lake battlefield to rescue Jon Snow. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

57:36 (+6) Benjen Stark:

After emerging from the cloud of smoke, 3 wights are knocked down at the end of Benjen's run as he approaches Jon Snow across the icy shore. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

Benjen is swinging his flail preceding this, but it's all in a hazy cloud of smoke/mist and you can't make out any wights or bodies getting killed until the end. -nyan

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2017 Aug 23
What about the "clunk" sound you hear when he hits them in the head? -jimmy.tague

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2017 Aug 23 nyan, jake.kmiech, Lem Lemoncake like this
That could be good enough evidence, 1 kill per unseen "clunk" -nyan

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2017 Aug 23 bookworm13457 and power.suit like this
This may be my favorite ruling of the season -bookworm13457

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2017 Aug 23 jake.kmiech likes this

58:22 (+4) Benjen Stark:

A horseless Benjen manages to knock out two more wights with his flaming flail before succumbing to the wight horde. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

Political Wins

23:27 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys rejects Tyrion's proposal that she name an heir.

Tyrion Lannister: "But there are other ways of choosing a successor. The Night's Watch has one method. The Ironborn, for all their many flaws, have another-"
Daenerys: "We will discuss the succession after I wear the crown." (Executive Decision)

33:58 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow and his crew successfully ambush the White Walker scouting party, killing the leader and capturing the live wight they were looking for. (Victorious Battle)

40:55 (+3) Jorah Mormont:

Jorah figures out that the White Walkers have some kind of hive-like control over the wight.

"When you killed the White Walker, almost all the dead that followed it fell. We can go for the Walkers. Maybe we'll stand a chance." (Secret Discovery)

45:10 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys ignores Tyrion's pleas, flying off with her three dragons to rescue Jon Snow and his expedition to capture a wight. "I'm not doing nothing again." (Executive Decision)

55:20 (+3) White Walker (Night King):

The Night King's Army of the Dead overwhelm Jon Snow's party, forcing them to evacuate by dragon and taking down one of Daenerys Targaryen's dragons, Viserion, in the process. (Victorious Battle)

67:27 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

After she rescues Jon Snow's expedition from the Army of the Dead and pledges to fight the war, Jon swallows his pride and agrees to bend the knee.

"Alright, not Dany. How about 'My Queen'? I'd bend the knee, but..." (New Follower/Prisoner)

kiss already ffs -Lem Lemoncake

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2017 Aug 23 nyan likes this
? they're both getting a new negative special for warm barfy moments ?_? -nyan

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2017 Aug 23 Lem Lemoncake and hkeseyan like this
Haha, I'd rather they marry already. Give them negative special points for each time we're waiting for one of them to make the first move and it's not happening.
When Jon said "my queen", I first thought it was meant as a proposal, same as with the cavepainting scene - but they keep disappointing me ;( -Lem Lemoncake

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2017 Aug 23

70:13 (+3) White Walker (Night King):

After having Viseron's body salvaged from the icy lake, the Night King reanimates the dragon as a wight. (New Follower/Prisoner)

Yeaah Dany will lose Viserion and the Night King will gain a Special for all of wight-Viserion's actions. -nyan

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2017 Aug 23 bookworm13457, jedjackoway, ehbud25, vjdev2015, 3 others like this
Does this include the dead body reappearing bonus? -jake.kmiech

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2017 Aug 23
Hmmmm good question. My feeling is that wight-Viserion will not count as a "dead body appearance", it potentially disrupts that category too much? -nyan

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2017 Aug 23 jake.kmiech and emilien.raggi like this
In the appearance at the end of the episode, Viserion was dead so it could be an appearance.... now it is awake/undead, so from now on no dead body appearances? Just like Jon, Beric, Mountain, Benjen -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 23 brandonthebigB, jake.kmiech, vjdev2015, nyan, 2 others like this
Makes sense to me. The dead points go to Dany, then, as it wasn't under the Night King's spell yet. If it dies again, the points should go to the Night King, though -jake.kmiech

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2017 Aug 23 vjdev2015, emilien.raggi, nyan, kimbo like this
Yeah, I agree with hkeseyan and jake.kmiech -emilien.raggi

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2017 Aug 23

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

4:16 (+3) Jon Snow:

Tormund Giantsbane: "I can breathe again. Down south the air smells like pigshit."
Jon Snow: "You've never been down south."
Tormund: "I've been to Winterfell."
Jon: "That's the North." (Funny Line)

23:47 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

Tyrion Lannister: "I'm trying to serve you by planning for the long term."
Daenerys: "Perhaps if you'd planned for the short term, we wouldn't have lost Dorne and Highgarden." (Witty Insult)

Deaths

54:12 (+5) Daenerys Targaryen:

Viserion slumps into the icy depths of the lake after having been fatally struck by an ice javelin from the Night King. (Death)

58:28 (+5) Benjen Stark:

Uncle "there's no time" Benjen succumbs to the horde of wights a full 52 seconds after sending Jon away with his horse. (Death)

69:10 (+2) Daenerys Targaryen:

Viseron's body is dragged back out from under the ice lake by a chain gang of wights. (Dead Body Appearance)

Special

54:59 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow drops Longclaw on the frozen ice sheet after he is tackled under water by the wights during the dragon evacuation. (Special)

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