Matchup: Young Jake, first of his name vs Dead Man Dennis The 4th for Ep 6

Super Game of Thrones League GT

Young Jake, first of his name (luikenjacob)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Special
Jon Snow Recently declared King in the North, he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, and formerly served as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch before he was betrayed by his fellow men.	#3	95	86	3	3	3
Jorah Mormont The exiled head of House Mormont. Jorah was previously one of Daenerys Targaryen's most trusted advisors before his banishment and subsequent infection with the fatal greyscale disease. As Daenerys leaves for Westeros, he wanders Essos in search of a cure.	#22	67	64	3	0	0
Sansa Stark The second eldest of the Stark children. After being held as a prisoner of House Bolton, Sansa managed to escape and, with the help of Jon Snow and the Knights of the Vale, defeated Ramsay Bolton to reclaim Winterfell for the Starks. She is a huge fan of lemon cakes.	#6	12	0	9	3	0
Samwell Tarly A steward of the Night's Watch, Samwell has been sent south to Oldtown to begin his training as a Maester. He is a close friend to Jon Snow, and one of the few people known to have killed a White Walker.	#14	0	0	0	0	0
Theon Greyjoy Heir to the Iron Islands, and formerly a ward of House Stark. Theon is slowly recovering from physical and mental breakdown during his time as a prisoner of Ramsay Bolton. He currently accompanies his sister Yara Greyjoy, who has pledged her Ironborn forces to the cause of Daenerys Targaryen.	#27	0	0	0	0	0
Brienne of Tarth A skilled fighter and heir to House Tarth. After swearing an oath to Catelyn Stark, she continues her mission to ensure the safety of the Stark girls.	#11	0	0	0	0	0
Grey Worm The leader of the Unsullied - a highly-trained army of freed slaves who serve Daenerys Targaryen.	#19	0	0	0	0	0
Daario Naharis Leader of the Second Sons, a sellsword company who now serves Daenerys Targaryen. He is also one of Daneerys' trusted advisors and her lover, but has been left behind in Meereen to govern the city.	#30	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		174	150	15	6	3

Dead Man Dennis The 4th (dannyinthewinter)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics
White Walker (Night King) The leader of the White Walkers.	#8	16	10	6
Pirate on the Silence (actor: Conor McGregor)	#32	0	0	0
Meera Reed The eldest child of Howland Reed, bannerman to the Starks. She assists Bran in his journeys north of the Wall and is the only other surviving member of his party.	#25	0	0	0
Olenna Redwyne (Grandma Tyrell) The matriarch of House Tyrell, Olenna seeks only revenge against the Lannisters after Cersei wiped out nearly all of House Tyrell in the wildfire explosion at the Sept of Baelor. She is known as the "Queen of Thorns" for her sarcasm and wit.	#17	0	0	0
Bronn A former sellsword, who has risen through the ranks of nobility thanks to his fighting skills and work for the Lannisters. He has accompanied Jaime Lannister on his missions to Dorne and Riverrun.	#24	0	0	0
Cersei Lannister Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, after the death of her last remaining child Tommen Baratheon. She suffers from a rare water allergy.	#1	0	0	0
Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger) Lord Protector of the Vale, Littlefinger effectively controls the Knights of the Vale through the easily manipulated Robbin Arryn. He is a master manipulator who will stop at nothing for power.	#9	0	0	0
Varys Formerly the Master of Whisperers in King's Landing, Varys now pulls the political strings for Daenerys Targaryen, arranging alliances with the Westerosi Houses Tyrell and Martell. He controls a vast network of spies.	#16	0	0	0
Totals		16	10	6

Kills

26:47 (+10) Jorah Mormont:

As the wight bear mauls a helpless Thoros, Jorah runs in to stab it with his dragonglass dagger, killing the bear and saving Thoros. (Kill of Named Character)

32:57 (+2) Jorah Mormont:

Jorah slices across a wight during the attack on the White Walker scouting party. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

33:06 (+10) Jon Snow:

After dodging a blow, Jon slices through the White Walker leading the scouting party with Longclaw, shattering it to pieces. (Kill of Named Character)

33:07 (+14) Jon Snow:

7 of the wights in the scouting party disintegrate after Jon kills the White Walker leading them.
(Kill of Unnamed Character)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

15 more comments - see full thread

It feels incredibly unfair to not count the deaths as kills. Those 7 Wights died as a result of a combat situation, the kills need to be attributed. The surrender analogy does not work, in a normal situation the surrendering soldiers would be taken captive because they are alive and still functioning. In this scenario the wights couldn't be captured because they were destroyed due to Jon's actions, the wight they DID capture can more accurately be seen as a surrender. If anything, this resembles an execution of prisoners, where Jon passed the judgement and swung the sword.

Also I agree that it is unfair to remove the points after a week, where no new arguments were brought up to strengthen the case for removal. -brandonthebigB

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 28 hindsight44 likes this
When soldiers surrender you have gained an asset or at the very least levrage. There is a specific advantage to gaining surrendered soldiers that is not at play here. They were once functional wights that would kill any living thing and now theyre nothing. The rules state that kills are counted regardless of reason. Jon Snows actions directly led those 7 wights dying........again -hindsight44

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 28
Yeah the delay in scoring update is my bad, I've ended up on another spotty-internet week during travel for this one and wasn't able to do these earlier. The summer run for S7 has really caused some conflicts with travel, I'll have to figure out the S8 schedule much better.

I think you guys are right from a scorekeeping purity standpoint. The wights went from soldiers to being dead because of this action, to call it a surrender can work as a stretch but yes, it is a stretch we'd be making to find a way to discount the points. I started thinking about parallel examples, with a very basic kill switch action that causes large numbers of deaths. You might say Bronn igniting the Blackwater Bay wildfire, or a hypothetical Qyburn's little bird igniting the wildfire underneath the Sept of Baelor, and I think most players would readily accept those as valid scores.

Giving it some further thought, I did have that same first impression of "cheapness" as most of the others who initially commented. I think that comes from having such a directly comparable set of kills in the exact same scene - the Hound, Tormund, Jorah, et. al. are busy hacking away at the wights for their measly 1-2 kills each, and then Jon swoops in with an easy 7-kill swing. But it can be fine that some kills are cheaper than others, and while a jackpot scenario may exist in the future with whoever takes down the Night King, it's a much more equitable free-for-all for any character to achieve, unlike say Daenerys' dragon roastings.

Perhaps with better per-league tools, we can again have multiple rulesets for S8 that could include or exclude the wight-follower kills.

Anyhow for this one, I'll go back to the original decision which is to count the 7 as kills. -nyan

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 29 brandonthebigB, jake.kmiech, hindsight44, emilien.raggi like this

47:17 (+34) Jon Snow:

Jon cuts down 17 wights in the ensuing battle as the Night King's Army of the Dead descends upon the group, up until Daenerys and her dragons arrive. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

47:20 (+52) Jorah Mormont:

Jorah cuts down 26 wights in the ensuing battle as the Night King's Army of the Dead descends upon the group. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

52:39 (+20) Jon Snow:

Jon realizes he is currently only 4th place on the Kills leaderboard, and climbs back down off of Drogon to score 10 more wight kills in garbage time, as all the others wisely get onboard. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

53:35 (+10) White Walker (Night King):

The Night King launches a perfect javelin toss, striking Viserion right in the neck and bringing him crashing straight down into the icy lake. (Kill of Named Character)

11 more comments - see full thread

I think everyone is missing the point here about the dragon kill. This is fantasy Game of Thrones, we are never going to accurately score each character for how much impact they truly have on the show. 1) because this is fantasy and we have to have rigid rules to score points for events instead of retroactively assigning point values to things and 2) because impact is subjective and we will never fully agree on who has more impact

The thing everyone who is complaining about points that characters deserve for certain events is sorely missing is that in fantasy we need to settle on points awarded for certain events and then the players play the game around that. Everyone knew ahead of time that killing a dragon would be 10 points. Everyone knew that drinking wine is 5 points and full frontal nudity is 20. Everyone knew that killing 5 random characters is the same as killing 1 named character no matter how tough or important they are. Playing fantasy Game of Thrones is a skill in and of itself, and whoever pays the most attention to those specific rules should be rewarded. If you drafted the Night King because you thought he is ultimately more powerful than someone like Jaime who has one hand, you made a terrible mistake by overlooking the fact that Jaime can drink, have sex, say good lines, rack up specials, have more screen time, while the Night King rarely does killing with his own hands, doesn't talk, have sex, or drink.

It is Nathan's job as the runner of this site to ensure that 1) the game is competitive and fair within its intended scope and 2) points are being counted for what they were implied to be counted for when people drafted their characters. You can say killing a dragon is more of a power than Sam reading 4 books but the fact remains that drafting the Night King with the hopes that a dragon kill would win your season was a bad fantasy move. -hkeseyan

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 24 jake.kmiech, emilien.raggi, emilyjmahar, WampaLord, 2 others like this
Where our discussions about points should happen is in events where there is ambiguity or a dispute in whether or not something satisfies a condition for awarding points on an event. No one is denying a dragon was killed. You could've looked back and did your research and seen that killing giants and white walkers were the same number of points. -hkeseyan

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 24 jedjackoway, jake.kmiech, emilien.raggi like this
What hkeseyan said <3 and I'd like to add that exactely this, for me personally at least, is what brings the fun into this: the seeming arbitrariness. That Doran Martell can have his one episode in which he does a few steps on his own to prove a point then die and score hugely for that single episode but never before or after. This is also one of the reasons why I now prefer H2H to Roto. I have Dany in my team and obviously have the by far highest overall scoring. Still, I don't lead my H2H league, because I lost the pre-dragonsofmassdestruction-episodes :> -Lem Lemoncake

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 25

54:34 (+8) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow cuts down four wights after witnessing Viseron's death, before realizing that trying to cut his way to the Night King for a 1v1 was a terrible idea and that he should really get back to the dragon evac. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

Political Wins

33:58 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow and his crew successfully ambush the White Walker scouting party, killing the leader and capturing the live wight they were looking for. (Victorious Battle)

40:55 (+3) Jorah Mormont:

Jorah figures out that the White Walkers have some kind of hive-like control over the wight.

"When you killed the White Walker, almost all the dead that followed it fell. We can go for the Walkers. Maybe we'll stand a chance." (Secret Discovery)

44:01 (+3) Sansa Stark:

Sansa commands Brienne of Tarth to journey south to King's Landing for the meeting convened to present the White Walker threat, leaving Sansa alone in Winterfell despite her protests.

Brienne: I sworn an oath to protect you and your sister. If I abandon you-"
Sansa: "The trip to King's Landing is long, Lady Brienne, and you won't be travelling on summer roads. The sooner you leave, the better your chances of making it on time." (Executive Decision)

55:20 (+3) White Walker (Night King):

The Night King's Army of the Dead overwhelm Jon Snow's party, forcing them to evacuate by dragon and taking down one of Daenerys Targaryen's dragons, Viserion, in the process. (Victorious Battle)

61:27 (+3) Sansa Stark:

Sansa goes snooping into Arya's room in an attempt to recover the copy of the raven letter. (Act of Betrayal)

61:57 (+3) Sansa Stark:

While snooping through her room, Sansa discover's Arya's stash of faces. (Secret Discovery)

70:13 (+3) White Walker (Night King):

After having Viseron's body salvaged from the icy lake, the Night King reanimates the dragon as a wight. (New Follower/Prisoner)

Yeaah Dany will lose Viserion and the Night King will gain a Special for all of wight-Viserion's actions. -nyan

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 23 bookworm13457, jedjackoway, ehbud25, vjdev2015, 3 others like this
Does this include the dead body reappearing bonus? -jake.kmiech

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 23
Hmmmm good question. My feeling is that wight-Viserion will not count as a "dead body appearance", it potentially disrupts that category too much? -nyan

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 23 jake.kmiech and emilien.raggi like this
In the appearance at the end of the episode, Viserion was dead so it could be an appearance.... now it is awake/undead, so from now on no dead body appearances? Just like Jon, Beric, Mountain, Benjen -hkeseyan

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 23 brandonthebigB, jake.kmiech, vjdev2015, nyan, 2 others like this
Makes sense to me. The dead points go to Dany, then, as it wasn't under the Night King's spell yet. If it dies again, the points should go to the Night King, though -jake.kmiech

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 23 vjdev2015, emilien.raggi, nyan, kimbo like this
Yeah, I agree with hkeseyan and jake.kmiech -emilien.raggi

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/src/Util/TimeUtil.php on line 10
2017 Aug 23

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

4:16 (+3) Jon Snow:

Tormund Giantsbane: "I can breathe again. Down south the air smells like pigshit."
Jon Snow: "You've never been down south."
Tormund: "I've been to Winterfell."
Jon: "That's the North." (Funny Line)

29:15 (+3) Sansa Stark:

on the Northern lords: "Yes, they turned their backs on Jon when it was time to retake Winterfell, and then they named him their King, and now they're ready to turn their backs on him again. How far would you trust men like that? They're all bloody wind vanes." (Witty Insult)

Special

54:59 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow drops Longclaw on the frozen ice sheet after he is tackled under water by the wights during the dragon evacuation. (Special)

©
Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/templates/footer.php on line 2
2025 Nathan Yan

Release 1.8.7 | Legalese