22:40
(+3)
Cersei Lannister:
Over Jaime's protests, Cersei meets with Euron Greyjoy to hear his alliance proposal, although it ultimately ends in Euron leaving empty-handed with a promise to return with a gift.
(Executive Decision)
submitted by hindsight44 (approved!)
colin.oloughlin likes this
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She didn't broker a deal. She refused his proposal. I suppose she could get points for an executive decision by refusing his proposal. Euron hasn't agreed to do her bidding. It was his idea to leave and bring her a gift. Also, Jaime wasn't trying to convince her, just offering his opinion. I think only 1 of these three items is valid. -alicehanners
jedjackoway and tommyjames81 like this -
She absolutley brokered a deal. Refusing his proposal was part of the negotiation which led to the deal. In the beginning of the episode Euron was completley independent, by the end he is on a mission to win Cerseis trust. All of this based on a deal manufactured and negotiated by Cersei. Also Cersei clearly uses Jaime in an advisory position when it comes to war tactics. the first thing she says to him in ep1 is where will Danaerys land? implying he is an advisor. So when Jaime vehemenntly argues against any alliance with the Greyjoys and Cersei overules him(mind you at this point Jaime is Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West so his word is much more than opinion.) it isbclearly an executive decision. -hindsight44
hawaiikman likes this -
Yeah no. There was no deal brokered. Euron is still completely independent. There is no deal. Quite literally all she said was she refused his proposal and that he isn't trustworthy.
If she asked him to prove his trustworthiness, that'd be something.
All Cersei actually does is refuse the proposal and state why. This is actually in line with Jaime's advisement against joining with them. She's being cautious. No alliance was made, so she hasn't overruled Jaime.
Jorah left to try and win back Dany's trust. That wasn't Dany brokering a deal. That was Jorah acting alone. This is Euron acting alone. We'll see if a deal is brokered when Euron gets back. -alicehanners
nyan and bookworm13457 like this -
Well i guess its a good thing im not arguing the interaction between Dany and Jorah. (BTW Dany gave Jorah the stipulation of if u get this disease cured then you can come take the seven kingdoms with me. which is in its essence a deal. In no way was it 'Jorah acting alone'. re watch the scene.)
Regardless of that Cersei called in one of the most powerful and independent Armadas in the world to negotiate. At the end of the these negotiations the armada left with the mission of trying to gain her favor. So negotiations happened and fragile alliance was created out of it and youre saying Cersei shouldnt get points for it?
Also i dont understand why you think because she made a refusal to a part of the negotiation its as if nothing happened at all. When brokering a deal of refsuals of propsals happen all the time, (FYI to broke literally means to negotiate).that doesnt mean the negotiation didnt take place or there was no outcome.
She has literally arranged for one of the most dominant armadas in the ocean to work for her behest.
-hindsight44
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I don't think you understand what happened. Nobody agreed to anything. Because Euron is going to try and win her over doesn't mean there was a deal. There's no alliance, no deal, no negotiation. He proposed. She declined. He said "fine, I'll come back with a present."
They aren't working for her behest. How is it working for her that they are off to do something that she doesn't even know about?
If it was a "deal" or "alliance" every time someone tried to win over someone else, there would be a heck of a lot of alliances.
A negotiation involves some kind of discussion of terms, compromise, etc.
If I say to my coworker "Hey, would you throw this bottle out for me?" and they say "No." that wasn't a negotiation.
That's what happened.
Anyway. I think I've made my case as well as I can. -alicehanners
bookworm13457 likes this -
Youre right, the fact that Cersei has influenced The King of the Iron Islands to work in her interest by entering into negotiations with him warrants no points. -hindsight44
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K, what'd she ask him to do? -alicehanners
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She didnt have to ask anything, she set up a negotiation with the pretense of a possible alliance/marriage and Euron came equipt with multiple offers. She refused one offer the other she didnt.
-hindsight44
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Just wanted to chime in that this is a really good debate. The Deals Brokered is a new category for this season, so if Cersei is doing things that everyone thinks is point worthy, we can figure it out that that scoring criteria should be. -nyan
tommyjames81 likes this -
Thanks! the real point im trying to make is that at the beginning of s7 the Lannisters are the most vulndrable house thats still relevant. They have the most enemies with no allies. By the end of the episode Cersei has influenced the Iron Fleet and Euron Greyjoy(a notoriously independent and bad ass mofo) to go try and win her favor. she did all this through negotiation. and political manuvering.
Thats a pretty serious power move and is as point worthy as any other political points deemed.
Also still think she used her executive power to overrule Jaimes (warden of the west and general of Lannister armies) disproval of an alliance with the Iron Born. -hindsight44
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This arrangement also puts the iron fleet between Kings Landing and Dragonstone (theyre close to each other). Essentially being the only thing stopping Dragons/the Unsullied/dorthraki and Yaras fleet from sacking Kings Landing. -hindsight44
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If you look at the 'Political wins' Category it is defined as "Acts that bolster a character (or their House's) political strength". -hindsight44
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Overruling or Convincing a Major Decision
Overruling: An "executive" decision is made unilaterally over the protest of at least 1 third party involved in the discussion
Overruling doesn't apply to a second party who is the target of the discussion. For example, everyone who is sentenced to death will by default protest the decision. The overrule is only counted if a third party protests to defend the person sentenced to death.
This is sub section 1 in the rulebook under politcal wins, Jaime is the third party in the discussion who protests the decision and is then overruled by Cersei who has executive power. -hindsight44
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I don't think this was brokering a deal either. Euron left essentially saying "I'm gonna go do something to prove to you that I'm someone worthy of brokering a deal with"
We also have no idea what Euron is planning to do, though we can guess. And what will be very in return?
Her actions caused him to go and try to come back with a better offer, but I don't think this implies that a deal has been made. -tommyjames81
alicehanners likes this -
I feel that cersei should of been awarded political points as while she didn't confirm that she would hold up the end of her bargain that she made a move which politically has put her ahead of where she it regardless of the outcome that follows -brendanyoung3552
hindsight44 likes this -
Wasn't Euron planning to go to win her over to begin with? He needs a queen, where else was he going to go when his nephew and niece went to the other single queen?
We can't give political points to people who happen to be in a situation that could potentially benefit them. Euron could leave and get wooed by Olenna or something. Nothing has been actually arranged, they aren't allies yet. -alicehanners
tommyjames81 likes this -
The last thing ill say (promise) is even if you dont agree that it was a fully brokered deal i think most of us can admit it was a political win for House Lannister designed by Cersei. Considering there is a category in the acoring rubric called political wins she should get some points. -hindsight44
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I would have to agree that Cersei should have been rewarded for that situation. It is made clear by Jamie that the Lannisters are extremely vulnerable, that is followed by Cersei telling him she has listened to her father lecture here about making allies and then she meets with Euron. At the conclusion of that meeting both parties are under the impression that the iron fleet is going to be used to hunt Daenerys.
Regardless of what was said she influenced another house to do something that was not only in the best interests of house Lannister, but more importantly for herself as queen. I am new to this league so I am not sure on the scoring but, I think it is also note worthy that she was acting against the wishes of her brother, overruling his objections; Cercei also overrules Euron proposal some may consider that an insult at the very least exerting her power considering women's rights in the Seven Kingdoms at that time. -ken.klappert
hindsight44 likes this -
I gotta say, this is an interesting discussion. Also, I'm not sure how to interpret this part of the rules: Deals must be brokered on behalf of another party. E.g. Varys would get a Deals Brokered point for securing the alliance of Dorne and the Tyrells on behalf of Daenerys, however Daenerys would not get these points for negotiating this alliance herself (she gets the actual followers/army points instead). -tommyjames81
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Yeah the original intention was for those 3rd party agents like Varys, Illyrio, Baelish. And I would say, if Cersei and Euron agreed on something concrete I don't think there'd be a need to look for Deals points, she would just be gaining a follower and a fleet and probably the executive decision over Jaime's protest (+9 in total). I think we sort of got blue-balled with Euron yet again, and we'll have to wait till he returns with his "gift" to see the payoff.
Sometimes in football the quarter ends your drive before you score the touchdown. It doesn't mean what you did so far isn't worthwhile, just that there aren't points on the board yet. -nyan
alicehanners likes this -
Cersei made House Lannister stronger through political maneuvering in episode 1. That being said i hear what you're saying about it not being a fully brokered deal.
I do think Cersei overruling with execuive order on Jaime however is shown in episode 1. He protests the very idea of meeting with Euron. He makes it clear he thinks inviting the Iron Fleet to negotiate, regardless of the outcome is a bad idea. So i dont think we need to see if Eurons plan bears any fruit, Cersei has already directly gone against Jaimes advisement by meeting with Euron. -hindsight44
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Yeah to me, overruling Jaime is the most concrete thing that's been done so far. It's a little soft that simply meeting with Euron is a "major decision", but Jaime argues pretty hard against doing that and as Queen, and exerts her power by just doing it anyway. -nyan
jedjackoway likes this -
Original submission from @hindsight44: "hey man i feel like Cersei kinda got boned on the political front. the way i see it she got 3 seperate political events. +3 for overuling jaime with an executive order on the iron born, he protested euron completley but cersei still brokered a deal with him.which leads to my second event when she brokered a deal with euron which should be+3. finally euron left episode agreeing to to the bidding or cersei which makes him a followet of cersei which should be another +3." -nyan
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You don't always have to outright ask to get what you want. To make someone think it is their idea to do what u want is perfect. It was a deal. -j.stainless11
hindsight44 likes this
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