Event: Cersei Lannister - Major Injury of Named Character (Kills)
Episode 3: The Queen's Justice at 0:00
0:00
(+5)
Cersei Lannister:
Cersei plants a kiss on Tyene Sand, poisoning her with the Long Farewell - the same poison used by Ellaria Sand to kill Myrcella Baratheon.
(Major Injury of Named Character)
submitted by nyan (approved!)
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Alright, let's have some discussion - the first of two major "deaths" this episode. We see Cersei plant the poisonous kiss, but we end with Ellaria and Tyene still very much alive in the dungeons, and even Qyburn saying it could take "days or weeks". I'm not sure that the death is "final" enough to count as a kill, and by previous precedent we've usually counted the deaths (and the kill) after we've gotten some explicit confirmation, like seeing the body or hearing a reference in a later episode.
Given Qyburn's "days or weeks" timespan, it seems like an open enough timespan that something could happen in the meantime, like a prison break scenario for example. This is a bit of the reasonable theory vs. baseless speculation discussion I was alluding to.
If the Kill is not counted at this time, do we still credit Cersei for a "major injury"? If we get a dead Tyene body in the next episode, it sort of allows Cersei to double-dip in points. But perhaps we'll just have to allow that for ambiguous kills that play out over multiple episodes?
A reminder that content outside of the aired episodes (including trailers for future episodes) are off-limits with regards to scoring criteria (partially for spoiler reasons, and also because making assumptions on quick trailer clips can turn out to be wrong) -nyan
hawaiikman and jason.t.szabo like this -
Just did a quick check to see if points were awarded for injury for characters who poisoned another character, and Oberyn didn't get it in s4e8, nor Tyene in s5e7, they just got points for the stabs that applied the poisons. I don't think we award injury points for this.
I think Qyburn's comments and also the precedent with Septa Unella never receiving death points means we should wait on Ellaria's and Tyene's deaths. At the very least wait on Ellaria's, since Tyene is likely done (even though people are wishfully hoping Bronn saves her in an act of romance) -hkeseyan
alicehanners likes this -
Ellaria seems like she'll definitely be kept alive, since Cersei wants to keep her around to watch Tyene's body rot. For Tyene it looks like we scored the dagger as a "minor injury" since that's what it seemed like at the time, but perhaps it's an oversight that it wasn't upgraded to "major" after it's revealed that it was fatal poison. Since we award kills for successful poisons, it seems consistent that we'd award injuries for poisoned-but-not-dead-yet? -nyan
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@nyan Are you suggesting we draw the line at the end of an episode? If a character receives an injury but dies the same episode from it, there are kill points but not injury points - but if a character receives an injury but does not definitively die that episode, then injury points are awarded?
In my opinion, I would rather assume Tyene dies here rather than give double-dip points like that. Then, if we see her saved, go back and award injury points and remove the kill points. Have we ever seen a character get injury points for a questionable death scene then get kill points for dying from that same event, but revealed later? The Hound survived, The Mountain survived, Tyrion survived the face slash, Bran survived the fall.... have we seen someone receive an injury then die later?
I think it's a slippery slope and could open a can of worms, particularly with the Olenna scene in the same episode. I vote to assume death then go back and change to injury if we're wrong. This is a slight nuisance to head-to-head leagues as it can reverse a win-loss decision a week later, but I think that's a minor consequence -hkeseyan
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Think she's not dead yet, we should wait. -xdwxrd
shannonferretti and alicehanners like this -
Oberyn vs Mountain is a good case - I am not sure how we would've scored it if the Mountain eventually succumbs to his injuries. It would be nice to score points in the episode they happen as much as possible. But I agree the double dipping idea for multi-episode dying is kind of arbitrary.
Perhaps I could introduce a new scoring subcategory that awards the other half of points on confirmation of a kill? So in this case Cersei gets the 5pts now for major injury. If Tyene's body shows up in E5, Cersei gets an additional +5pts at that point, under a "finishing off an injured named character" subcategory. -nyan
jedjackoway and emilien.raggi like this -
Shouldn't Cersei actually be getting intercourse points for this? -Lem Lemoncake
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@nyan good compromise. that means Tyene's death points hold off until later too I assume
@Lem need reproductive organs and/or nudity for intercourse -hkeseyan
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Just read an interview with Indira Virma (actress that plays Ellaria) and she said that both her and Tyene died off screen. http://ew.com/tv/2017/07/30/game-of-thrones-ellaria-cersei/ -ormsbynick16
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-hkeseyan
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i can't imagine that they will even show them in the dungeon again. I think the kill points should apply now since Tyenes doom is inevitable. Later if they do show it again it will go to whomever had Tyene as a character since it'll be her corpse. -ssleppy
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I definitely don't think this should count as a kill yet. And I think that there is a strong argument that this shouldn't count as a major injury either since a major injury requires that it is unrecoverable. This is not a poison that has no cure, in the very same scene we see Cersei drink the antidote and we see in a previous season Bronn do the same days later. With as much chaos going on right now there is absolutely no reason to assume that either of them die. Dany could literally sack Kings Landing any day now and she would surely save them both once she had control of the city. Now granted there may be spoiler information outside the current episodes that say otherwise but strictly from the info found within the last three episodes and previous seasons there is no reason at all to guarantee that they die. -ssantise
hawaiikman likes this -
so what if they never show the dungeon again? do those points just go ungained? i've not looked at any other spoilers or anything. I just think it's pretty clear that Tyene will die soon, but Ellaria will be kept alive to watch her daughter die and decompose. I thought that was pretty clear so i don't understand why there's even a debate about Tyenes death. didn't the poison work relatively quickly on Marcella? -ssleppy
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Qyburn said it would take her hours to days for her to die. Since we didnt see the on screen death we cant give it to her this episode because we dont see Kings Landing. If time has obiouvsly passed however and we still get no news of Tyene i say then we count the death. I think this is a good way to make it comparable to Olenna. Olenna should get points for dying because there is no realistic way out of what she went through. There is a realistic way for Tyene to survive. Either Cersei lied and its just phase 1 of a really fucked up plan to torture Tyene, or two she is saved. (Olennas army was just destroyed, the Dornish army is still presumably in Dorne.) -hindsight44
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Kills have also been confirmed verbally, like with Jon Snow saying 'Harald Karstark died on the field of battle' in S7E1. Possibly Qyburn gives her a status report at some point, even if we never see the dungeon. -nyan
emilien.raggi likes this -
We've also left ambiguous deaths as never killed, based on the on-screen evidence. They are more prominent characters generally, but there are a few cases that seemed hopeless on-screen but the characters come back later, such as the Hound, Benjen, and obviously Syrio. -nyan
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@ssantise you raise a good point about the poison, and they are a weird grey area since it is both a mortal wound, but 100% recoverable as long as you drink this simple antidote. So the other way would be to count as a "minor injury", but it feels a little cheap versus how probably the deaths seem to be. Possibly we'll just explicitly qualify "fatal poisons without immediate antidote application" as a major injury. The latter condition is to exclude Ellaria and Cersei from getting major injury points for themselves. -nyan
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that makes sense. i just thought it was pretty clear Tyene will die within the next day, but i see why you wouldn't i guess. -ssleppy
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Okay, people seem satisfied with the 5+5 option, so we'll score it that way - the characters are given the major injury points for inflicting a fatal injury now, and I've created a new subcategory in the system that will grant the +5 if the kill is confirmed subsequently - it'll show up as +5 "Kill of Named Character (finished off from previously fatal injury)".
With regards to fatal poison being major or not, I've added it into the rulebook as a case that's considered to be a major injury, and expanded the wording to include injuries that are "certainly fatal", since permanence is now just one criteria, but not the sole definition. -nyan
ssleppy and dlapato like this -
Who seems satisfied??? This is baffling to me. You're awarding death points for someone who may not be dead. What happens if Tyene is still alive next episode and does something? No death points without confirmed death. -alicehanners
righteous likes this -
@alicehanners there are no death points yet. these are major injury points for the poison which will be upgraded to 10 total for kill points if the poison kills her (to prevent a 5+10 double dip for Cersei) and then 5 to Tyene when she dies -hkeseyan
nyan likes this -
Doesn't make sense to give death points for this, but it's certainly major injury. -righteous
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