Jon and the Magnificent Seven set out beyond the Wall from Eastwatch, on a ranging to capture a wight to bring back south. Among the new recruits under his command are Jorah Mormont, Gendry, Beric Dondarrion, Thoros, and the Hound.
(New Follower/Prisoner)
submitted by nyan (rejected)
brandonthebigB likes this
-
Okay i would like to contest that none of the people are followers other than Gendry.
Jorah specifcally says to Dany that he is going to the wall to serve Dany not for Jon.Jorah is in no way subservient to to Jon. Jorah and Jon are in a partnership of common interest.
Beric made it clear that he is there because of the Lord of Light. The brotherhood is subservient to Rhollor not Jon Snow. Jon lets them out based of the logic of theyre all breathing so theyre on the same side. The rules explicitly state:Followers must be in a subservient role - equal partnerships are not counted. Just because they are fighting together does not mean they are all servinfg Jon.The brotherhood has made it clear they dont serve anyone but Rhollor.
Also the rules state:Followers are not transitive - if a Lord swears an oath of fealty to the King, that is simply 1 follower. The knights and others who serve under the Lord are not direct followers of the King.
Thoros and The hound are memebrs of the brotherhood so even if the brotherhood counts as followers they are one group of people which should only be +3. -hindsight44
nyan, hkeseyan, goodjujumagic like this -
I think there's a decent argument to be had there. On the other hand, they're all clearly taking command from Jon and I don't think any of them is going to have an ulterior motivation or go rogue. -nyan
-
What command did Jon give them?. If Rhollor gave them a vision to leave Jon they would. If Dany told Jorah to come back and ditch Jon he would. There is no evidence of subservience.I dont think Jon commanded any of them to do anything in that episode he simply set them free. All of these characters are going on their own free will not because Jon told them to.
The scene where they let them out clearly implies that all of these people have reason to hate each other but must band together to fight a common enemy. I think there is much more evidence of equal partnership than subservience. Also the brotherhood is one entity not three seperate followers. Dany didnt get points for every lannister who bent the knee. -hindsight44
dgallant75 likes this -
Beric: "here we all are at the edge of the world heading in the same direction for the same reason."
Davos:"Our reasons are not your reasons."
Beric:" it doesnt matter what out reasons are and we serve it together whether we know each other or not we make take the steps but the Lord of Light....".
The hound then cuts them off and deliberatley asks if they will free them so they can go with them.
Directly after that Jon says says we are on the same side because we are all breathing. And thats how the episode ends so theres no language of commands, fealty or subservience, rather equal shared interest. -hindsight44
-
Beric:"We dont want to go beyond the wall we have to, our Lord told us..."theb Gendry cuts him off. -hindsight44
-
Jon is still leading them on the journey. They aren't all walking in random directions, they are following Jon Snow, who is clearly going to be in charge of the expedition. Following him doesn't mean they are no longer following the Lord of Light or Dany. They are still doing what the Lord of Light or Dany wanted them to do, but on this journey, they are following Jon's lead. That counts as them following him -cfitzgerald
nyan and kremershell like this -
@cfitzgerald I think that's too loose of an interpretation of the word follower. They're allies. Littlefinger last week did not count as a follower of Bran, I think the reasoning for that was good and similar to this: they are offering to listen but are not subservient. They did not pledge oaths nor accept him as their king. -hkeseyan
nyan likes this -
@cfitzgerald followers only count if they are subservient in some capacity. If Cersei and Dany team up with Jon to fight their common enemies the WW that doesnt make them followers of Jon. -hindsight44
-
There is literally no language at all in the episode to suggest they are subservient to Jon, there is alot of evidence through the episode and season that the brotherhood is subservivent ro rhollor and jorah to dany, if you have any quotes to contradict this feel free to post them. -hindsight44
-
I'll move this into submissions, there are some good points being brought up. Allies vs. Followers is a good way to frame the discussion I think. @hindsight44 also brings up an issue of how independent Beric-Thoros-Sandor really are, or if they're all under Beric (this is the transitive rule, like Jon deciding to bend the knee would only ever give Dany one new follower, not everybody underneath him like Sansa, Arya, Bran, Wolkan, etc etc). -nyan
-
Characters can definitely have multiple allegiances though. Melisandre is probably the biggest believer to the Lord of Light, and she was a follower for Stannis. -nyan
-
Was Tormund a follower of Jon when they went up north to Hardhome? I think this is maybe the best comparison. They went up with a common goal, but Tormund wasn't subservient -hkeseyan
nyan and hindsight44 like this -
I think Tormund wouldn't have counted in that case, they were much more equals (since Tormund was the intermediary to talk to all the Wildlings there). I think this decision would set a new precedent on whether being a clear commander means everyone in the army is a follower. -nyan
-
If Dany and Cersei team up with Jon to fight the WW and Jon commands the battle does that make them followers? Are they subservient or are they letting Jon command because its unwise to put too many cooks in the kitchen? -hindsight44
nyan likes this -
I think I've been swayed to reverse this. Some other precedents would be Jorah and Daario teaming up to search for Dany in S6, or the Night's Watch brothers going up to evict Karl Tanner and the mutineers out of Craster's in S4. They were banding up, and perhaps Jon could be said to lead the mission but nobody was following/subservient to the other.
For Jorah there's definitely some independence - he's actually first to volunteer to bag a wight before Jon even. And the Brotherhood seems mostly happy to get out and never makes any remarks about following Jon. Gendry has the previous scene on Dragonstone where he pledges to join up with whatever Jon's doing, so he'll count here: http://fantasora.com/event/3596 -nyan
hkeseyan likes this
©
Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/templates/footer.php on line 2
2025 Nathan Yan
Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /var/www/html/fantasora.com/public_html/templates/footer.php on line 2
2025 Nathan Yan