Matchup: Petyr is Bae[lish] vs ArysOakheart Shoulda Lived for Ep 10

Petyr is Bae[lish] (wsleppy)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Deaths	Special
Cersei Lannister Queen Regent of the Seven Kingdoms and mother to King Tommen. Afflicted by a rare water allergy.	#6	627	598	9	6	5	0	9
High Sparrow The leader of the Sparrows, a religious movement within the Faith of the Seven. After being appointed as High Septon by Cersei Lannister, he has lead a sweeping inquiry to root out moral corruption in King's Landing, imprisoning Loras Tyrell, Margaery Tyrell, and Cersei Lannister.	#27	21	5	6	0	0	10	0
Tommen Baratheon The King of the Seven Kingdoms after the assassination of his brother, Joffrey Baratheon. He is young and highly impressionable to the various influences in King's Landing that seek to control him.	#22	20	10	0	0	0	10	0
Qyburn A disgraced former Maester, who was banished from the order for engaging in forbidden experiments. He is recruited by Cersei to assist in various medical facilities, and now serves as Master of Whispers in King's Landing.	#54	19	10	9	0	0	0	0
Mace Tyrell The head of House Tyrell and Lord of Highgarden. He is the father of Loras and Margaery. While bumbling and appearing incompetent, he heads a powerful House and serves as both Master of Ships and Master of Coin on King Tommen Baratheon's Small Council.	#59	10	0	0	0	0	10	0
Three-eyed raven A mysterious man who lives far north of the Wall with the Children of the Forest. He has been guiding Bran's dreams through the form of a three-eyed raven.	#43	1	0	0	0	0	1	0
Trystane Martell Prince Doran Martell's son, and heir to Dorne. He is betrothed to Myrcella Baratheon, and accompanies her back to King's Landing to serve on the Small Council.	#38	1	0	0	0	0	1	0
Davos Seaworth Ser Davos is a knight serving Stannis Baratheon, and one of his most trusted advisors. He is often at odds with the Red Priestess Melisandre.	#11	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		699	623	24	6	5	32	9

ArysOakheart Shoulda Lived (trevormkurtz)

Character	Drafted	Total	Politics	Insults	Deaths	Special
Jon Snow The bastard son of Ned Stark, and the current Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. After guiding the Wildlings to safety in the aftermath of the Battle of Castle Black and the attack on Hardhome, he was betrayed by a mutiny of the Night's Watch, and left for dead in the snow.	#14	30	21	3	0	6
Lyanna Stark Eddard Stark's sister. She was kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen and subsequently died, which sparked Robert Baratheon and the Starks to rebel against he Targaryens.	#30	13	3	0	10	0
Eddard Stark The long-deceased head of House Stark. There are rumors that he may make a reappearance in flashback form for S6.	-	3	3	0	0	0
Varys Formerly the Master of Whisperers in King's Landing, Varys controls a vast network of spies. After smuggling Tyrion Lannister to Essos, he reveals himself as a supporter of Daenerys Targaryen's claim to the Iron Throne. In Daenerys' absence, he serves with Tyrion Lannister and presides over the rule of Meereen.	#3	3	3	0	0	0
Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun A Wildling Giant, who fought in the Battle of Hardhome and was one of the few to escape.	#51	1	0	0	1	0
Podrick Payne A squire in the service of Brienne of Tarth. He previously served as Tyrion Lannister's squire.	#35	0	0	0	0	0
Tyene Sand The youngest of Oberyn Martell's bastard children, known as the Sand Snakes. She uses daggers and poisons as her weapons.	#46	0	0	0	0	0
Eddison Tollett A member of the Night's Watch, and one of Jon Snow's few friends on the Wall.	#19	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		50	30	3	11	6

Kills

9:05 (+5) High Sparrow:

The High Sparrow orders the seven-pointed star to be carved into Loras Tyrell's forehead after his confessions, as a symbol of his sins and newfound faith in the Seven.
Margaery Tyrell: "You mutilated him. You gave me your word." (Major Injury of Named Character)

How is this a kill? -tylermanhart

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2016 Jun 28
Shouldn't Lancel or the Sparrow cutting get the points? -tylermanhart

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2016 Jun 28
That requires some skill -tylermanhart

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2016 Jun 28
These are major injury points, since the disfigurement is permanent. Lancel gets credit for the same (right below this one). Lancel's is the direct action, and the High Sparrow is the commanded one (since Lancel is a prisoner and willingly submits, it's regarded as "unskilled"). -nyan

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2016 Jun 28

13:02 (+10) Qyburn:

After luring Pycelle to his laboratory, Qyburn's Little Birds converge and stab the Grand Maester to death. "This pains me, my lord. Whatever your faults, you do not deserve to die alone in such a cold, dark place. But sometimes before we can usher in the new, the old must be put to rest." (Kill of Named Character)

Pycelle fights back and the little birds overwhelm him. Does this qualify as unskilled? -bookworm13457

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2016 Jun 28
I was thinking about this too. I think this is one of the few cases of the "executing a prisoner" scenario where the prisoner wasn't completely tied up and helpless, even if he was old, decrepit, and unarmed. -nyan

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2016 Jun 28
I'm good with it either way. Sadly, killing Pycelle probably falls beneath the floor of what qualifies as "skill" -bookworm13457

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2016 Jun 28 jedjackoway likes this
And really, by the time Qyburn lured him to the basement laboratory, the deed was done. No way was Pycelle was making it back up those stairs. -nyan

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2016 Jun 28

17:14 (+60) Cersei Lannister:

A candle burns down to ignite the cache of wildfire buried beneath the Sept of Baelor, creating a massive detonation that obliterates the Sept and the audience awaiting Cersei's Trial by Seven. The High Sparrow, Lancel Lannister, Kevan Lannister, Mace Tyrell, Loras Tyrell, and Margaery Tyrell perish as the wildfire explosion erupts through the floor of the Sept. (Kill of Named Character)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

115 more comments - see full thread

Part 2: So here's what we'll do.

Camp A will be a "default", as I think it's the general impression most viewers had on watching the scene, if they didn't dive into the nitty-gritty of scoring criteria. All of the leagues currently on Ruleset 3.1 and 4.0, Cersei will keep all the kill points.

For Camp B, all of the "reasonable split" scores will be added (Lem, Ramsay, Jordaario), under new Rulesets called 3.1b and 4.0b. These are the same as the existing Rulesets, just with these kill points added. Consider this a branch of the rules, enabling Leagues to self-determine which interpretation of the scoring criteria they want to apply.

I'll also be developing a new Ruleset 5.0 for the rewatches and S7 - it'll include the removal of commanded kills and the addition of some new political scoring categories to address some of the events that have felt like they weren't properly credited this season. The exact details need to be fine-tuned (the rewatches will be good practice), but ultimately it should address each of this season's controversial scores in a way that's unambiguous and properly rewarding for the magnitude of the characters' actions on the show.

At the end of this discussion, I personally fell into Camp C ("nothing counts"). However my read on that is that most players, in their gut, wanted the scoring to be Camp A or Camp B, but ended up supporting the strictness of Camp C because the other options create some hard-to-reconcile precedents. As a scorekeeper, there's some wariness that both Ruleset 4.0 and 4.0b will now be slightly broken in a "crap, this is going to be a mess for some future S7 events that I can imagine happening" sense.

The 5.0 revision of the rules should be the answer to that concern - we won't have to worry about these controversial 4.0/4.0b scores establishing bad precedents for future scoring, because we'll be using a completely new Ruleset 5.0 by then. In that sense, both of these bends for Camp A and Camp B might be considered do-right scores for the popular player sentiment on who deserves points, in a way that's safely not precedent-setting for the future Ruleset 5.0.

@jedjackoway and @bookworm13457 were the two main commenters that seemed to subscribe to Camp C without a personal leaning towards A or B. Hopefully your concerns were precedent-based like mine, and using A or B will be acceptable for your S6 scores (if not, I can always add in 3.1c/4.0c rulesets as well).

So in summary, this gives all leagues a Ruleset choice that fits with their preferred scoring style, and gives us a path forward to avoid this controversy in the future.

Hopefully this is a happy resolution for everyone playing this season. I'm off to count up some villagers and arrowed corpses. -nyan

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2016 Jul 1 bookworm13457, twalters, righteous like this
Thanks for all of your hard work @Nyan. I do not envy your task of counting the soldiers kill in the Battle of the Bastards. Looking forward to 1-2 more seasons of this! -bookworm13457

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2016 Jul 1 nyan, righteous, twalters, jedjackoway, 2 others like this
The above changes are now live! Check your league settings for the Ruleset 3.1b scoring option. (ended up skipping on 4.0b as it turns out hardly any leagues are on it - of the active commenters, only @Lem Lemoncake used it).

If you happen to be in a Public League and would like switch it do a different ruleset, just let me know directly on FB/email - I'll switch these with preference going to the desired Ruleset of players who have been active in the scoring discussions.

For those curious, here's are those 3.1b events (screenshots of the villagers count and every. freaking. arrow. death.):

Ramsay volleys (36 soldiers and horseys): http://fantasora.com/event/2927
Lem Lemoncloak's kill commands (32 villagers): http://fantasora.com/event/3056
Gatins 1/7th share of 32 villager kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3062
Qyburn 50% wildfire kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3067
Cersei 50% wildfire kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3066 -nyan

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2016 Jul 1 rajatnigam, bookworm13457, righteous, twalters like this

17:15 (+452) Cersei Lannister:

A candle burns down to ignite the cache of wildfire buried beneath the Sept of Baelor, creating a massive detonation that obliterates the Sept and the audience awaiting Cersei's Trial by Seven. Along with the High Sparrow, Small Council, and the Tyrell royal family, 226 other members of the audience perish as the wildfire explosion erupts through the floor of the Sept. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

I finally counted them all. Here's the wide shot! https://imgur.com/ft412aT -nyan

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2016 Jun 28
I'm keeping my arguments in the other thread for simplicity's sake. But why is this not going to Qyburn as well? -alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28
There's no confirmation that Qyburn did this however we do know that Cersei did. -klov3r

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2016 Jun 28
Just saw the "inside episodes 9&10" on HBO and they stated they used 287 extras for the scene. -alexander.hilton91

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2016 Jun 29 nyan and bookworm13457 like this
Stephanie on the FB page brought this up as well - I think we'll keep the criteria as just the on-screen body count, as it's easily scorable and we won't always have this kind of behind-the-scenes info available. -nyan

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2016 Jun 29

17:30 (+4) Cersei Lannister:

Two King's Landing pedestrians are consumed in the Sept of Baelor wildfire explosion. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

17:31 (+76) Cersei Lannister:

38 pedestrians in the square outside the Sept of Baelor are overrun as the explosion of wildfire spills outward onto the streets of King's Landing. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

17:36 (+6) Cersei Lannister:

A King's Landing pedestrian is crushed by a bell jettisoned from the explosion at the Sept of Baelor. Two other pedestrians are also destroyed as the alley becomes engulfed in wildfire. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

22:19 (+10) Tommen Baratheon:

After witnessing the wildfire explosion at the Sept of Baelor, Tommen removes his crown and leaps from the balcony to his death. (Kill of Named Character)

Political Wins

8:37 (+3) High Sparrow:

Loras renounces his claims to House Tyrell and swears himself to the High Sparrow and the Faith of the Seven.
Loras Tyrell: "I will abandon the Tyrell name and all that goes with it. I will renounce my lordship and my claims on Highgarden. I will never marry and I will never father children."
High Sparrow: "Brother Loras, I ask you to dedicate your life to the Seven Gods. Will you fight to defend your faith against heretics and apostates?"
Loras Tyrell: "I will." (New Follower/Prisoner)

10:04 (+3) High Sparrow:

The High Sparrow reneges on his agreement to release Loras Tyrell after his confessions (presumably unharmed).
Margaery Tyrell: "You mutilated him. You gave me your word."
High Sparrow: "And I have kept my word. Once the Queen Mother's trial is concluded, Brother Loras is free to leave." (Act of Betrayal)

13:02 (+3) Qyburn:

Qyburn lures Grand Maester Pycelle to his laboratory on false pretenses, and then sends his little birds to stab him to death. "This pains me, my lord. Whatever your faults, you do not deserve to die alone in such a cold, dark place. But sometimes before we can usher in the new, the old must be put to rest." (Act of Betrayal)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

17:14 (+3) Qyburn:

Qyburn's "More. Much more." report to Cersei in S6E8 is revealed to be his discovery of the barrels of wildfire buried beneath King's Landing, as Lancel Lannister discovers a cache set to trigger an explosion during the Trial by Seven at the Sept of Baelor. (Secret Discovery)

17:18 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei destroys the Sept of Baelor in an explosion of wildfire, killing most of the Tyrell royal family and the King's Small Council. (Act of Betrayal)

Eh, really? She all but declared herself accountable to no one when talking to Grandma Tyrell.
-alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28
One of the conditions of her release from imprisonment was that she would stand trial later. Though she swore that she would she decided to skip her court date to watch some fireworks. -jimwangerin

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2016 Jun 28
It seemed like Cersei and the Small Council had reached a sort of detente when we last left off, after they agreed on Jaime's plan to march the Tyrell army in. Maybe they didn't trust her 100%, but certainly none of them expected she would outright murder them. -nyan

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin likes this

18:22 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei takes Septa Unella prisoner, tying her down to a table as she tortures her. "Confess. It felt good. Beating me, starving me, frightening me, humiliating me. You didn't do it because you cared about my atonement. You did it because it felt good. ... I killed your High Sparrow, and all his little sparrows ... because it felt good to watch them burn. It felt good to imagine their shock and their pain. No thought has ever given me greater joy." (New Follower/Prisoner)

35:33 (+3) Jon Snow:

After Davos reveals that Melisandre had burned Princess Shireen at the stake and asks permission to execute her, Jon Snow elects the middle route and excommunicates her from the North. "Ride south today. If you return to the North, I'll have you hanged as a murderer." (Executive Decision)

56:48 (+3) Lyanna Stark:

Ned arrives to the top of the tower, where he discovers that his sister Lyanna has just given birth to a baby Jon Snow. (New Follower/Prisoner)

56:50 (+3) Eddard Stark:

A dying Lyanna Stark entrusts her newborn baby Jon Snow to her brother Ned. "You have to protect him. Promise me, Ned." (New Follower/Prisoner)

59:43 (+9) Jon Snow:

The Northern Lords Madnerly, Glover, Cerwyn declare their allegiance for Jon Snow as the King in the North.

Lord Wyman Manderly: "Lady Mormont speaks harshly, and truly ... I didn't think we'd find another king in my lifetime. I didn't commit my men to your cause, 'cause I didn't want more Manderly's dying for nothing. But I was wrong. Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding. He is the White Wolf. The King in the North."

Lord Robett Glover: "I did not fight beside you on the field and I will regret that until my dying day. A man can only admit when he was wrong and ask forgiveness ... There will be more fights to come. House Glover will stand behind House Stark as we have for a thousand years. And I will stand behind Jon Snow. The King in the North!" (New Follower/Prisoner)

61:13 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon gains the allegiance of Lord Yohn Royce of the Vale, as he and the Northern lords declare Jon as King in the North. (New Follower/Prisoner)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

Lord Royce is in the hall and can be seen drawing his sword along with the others. He doesn't have his own speech moment like the other Northern lords, and it's odd to imagine he would just drop his allegiance to Robin Arryn like that, which makes the score somewhat debatable. -nyan

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2016 Jun 28
Dunno how it works, but LF did mention the vale is now sworn to Stark? -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 28
Yeah, Baelish does say "I've declared for House Stark, for all to hear." So, I think Jon should definitely get points for his new followers from the Vale -cfitzgerald

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2016 Jun 28

61:17 (+3) Jon Snow:

Davos Seaworth rises with the other Northern lords in declaring their allegiance to Jon Snow as the King in the North. (New Follower/Prisoner)

61:25 (+3) Jon Snow:

After Lyanna Mormont's rousing speech, the Northern lords declare for Jon Snow as the new King in the North.

Lyanna Mormont: "But House Mormont remembers. The North remembers. We know no king but the King in the North whose name is Stark. I don't care if he's a bastard. Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins. He's my king from this day until his last day." (New Title)

63:11 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Qyburn: "I now proclaim Cersei of the House Lannister, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms. Long may she reign." (New Title)

63:33 (+3) Qyburn:

At Cersei Lannister's coronation to the Iron Throne, Qyburn wears the pin to signify his new title as Hand of the Queen. (New Title)

submitted by twalters (approved!)

66:01 (+3) Varys:

Varys returns from his diplomatic mission to Dorne, apparently successful at recruiting House Tyrell and the Sand Snakes to support Daenerys and lend her use of their navies. (Convincing Argument)

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

21:10 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

to Septa Unella: "This is Ser Gregor Clegane. He's quiet, too. Your Gods have forsaken you. This is your god now."
(Threat)

Is this really a threat, she's kinda just telling her whats up, not threatening something will happen if something else happens. -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 28 alicehanners likes this
Just 'cause it's flowery doesn't make this a good threat.
-alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin and jedjackoway like this
If I was strapped to a board, and Cersei introduced her giant of a bodyguard to me as my "new god", I'd feel pretty threatened. -marcelcdn

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2016 Jun 28 nyan, bookworm13457, wynnch, kayeexau like this
I feel threatened by a lot of things all the time. Doesn't mean they threatened me. -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 29

21:49 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

as she locks Septa Unella in with Gregor Clegane: "Shame. Shame. Shame." (Witty Insult)

38:05 (+3) Jon Snow:

Sansa: "A raven came from the Citadel. A white raven. Winter is here."
Jon: "Well, father always promised." (Funny Line)

submitted by cfitzgerald (approved!)

Under which category would this fall though? -Laxis

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2016 Jun 28
A funny line. They both kind of chuckle at it and I know I smiled, so I think it should count -cfitzgerald

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2016 Jun 28
Definitely funny line. In the comedy world this is what's called a "callback" where you reference an earlier joke, in this case the earlier joke was "Winter is Coming." -mg.flanigan11

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin and nyan like this

Glasses of Wine Consumed

17:51 (+5) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei drinks as she watches the wildfire explosion engulf the Sept of Baelor from the safety of her chambers in the Red Keep. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Deaths

17:25 (+10) High Sparrow:

The High Sparrow is engulfed as the wildfire explosion rips through the floor of the Sept of Baelor. (Death)

17:27 (+10) Mace Tyrell:

Mace Tyrell is engulfed as the wildfire explosion rips through the Sept of Baelor, destroying the entire section of King's Landing and killing all those inside. (Death)

22:19 (+10) Tommen Baratheon:

After witnessing the wildfire explosion at the Sept of Baelor, Tommen removes his crown and leaps from the balcony to his death. (Death)

26:42 (+0) Tommen Baratheon:

Tommen's shrouded body is presented to Cersei. "He should be with his grandfather, his brother, his sister. Burn him and bury his ashes where the Sept once stood." (Dead Body Appearance)

56:30 (+10) Lyanna Stark:

Lyanna dies in the tower shortly after giving birth to Jon Snow. (Death)

submitted by righteous (approved!)

8 more comments - see full thread

Dammit show writers, you'd think with an extended episode they could give Lyanna a dignified dying breath shot and make my fantasy scorekeeping life easier. ? -nyan

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2016 Jun 28 stephen.davignon likes this
Further thought:

I really don't think this should score.

If we aren't super picky about *seeing* the death in flashbacks, then we can potentially construe any flashback of a known dead character we haven't scored yet to be a death, since we can extrapolate that they died from there. That's obviously absurd.

Therefore, it seems like we want the bar for confirmation for deaths in flashbacks to be higher than deaths in the present. -jedjackoway

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2016 Jun 28
Definitely we should avoid scoring any flashbacks deaths just because we know they are dead in present-time. In this case, I think all the blood + dialogue (Ned says "You're not going to die" but then Lyanna rejects his attempts to save her) gives just enough evidence to score it as a death even as a normal scene. It's a borderline one for sure, and I think you'll find scenes like a defeated Sandor Clegane just on the other side of that line. -nyan

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2016 Jun 28 jedjackoway likes this

+1 for Three-eyed raven, +1 for Trystane Martell, +1 for Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun

Special

10:26 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei pours herself a glass of wine while observing the events at the Sept of Baelor from afar. (Special)

18:15 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei pours out her glass of wine over Septa Unella's face as she is bound to a table. "Confess." (Special)

18:32 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

After emptying her glass, Cersei returns to pour out an entire pitcher of wine over Septa Unella's face as she tortures her. (Special)

52:02 (+3) Jon Snow:

Petyr Baelish: "Who should the North rally behind? A trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark born here at Winterfell? Or a motherless bastard born in the south?" (Special)

59:17 (+3) Jon Snow:

Lyanna Mormont: "I don't care if he's a bastard. Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins." (Special)

©
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