Matchup: The Imps vs The Lethal Lions for Ep 5

The Imps (randocardrissiangot)

Character	Drafted	Total	Politics	Insults	Wine	Deaths	Special
Tyrion Lannister Quick to wit and even quicker to the drink, Tyrion is the youngest of three Lannister children. After being exiled by his sister Cersei, he has joined with Daenerys Targaryen, serving as her Hand of the Queen and most trusted adviser.	#4	34	6	15	10	0	3
Bronn A former sellsword, who has risen through the ranks of nobility thanks to his fighting skills and work for the Lannisters. He has accompanied Jaime Lannister on his missions to Dorne and Riverrun.	#28	18	3	15	0	0	0
Randyll Tarly Samwell Tarly's disapproving father. He is the Lord of House Tarly, and was one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros.	#33	5	0	0	0	5	0
Tyene Sand The youngest of Oberyn Martell's bastard children, known as the Sand Snakes. She uses daggers and poisons as her weapons.	#45	0	0	0	0	0	0
Daario Naharis Leader of the Second Sons, a sellsword company who now serves Daenerys Targaryen. He is also one of Daneerys' trusted advisors and her lover, but has been left behind in Meereen to govern the city.	#40	0	0	0	0	0	0
Qyburn The new Master of Whispers in King's Landing, loyally serving Queen Cersei Lannister. A disgraced former Maester, he engages in many scientific experiments in his dungeon lab	#21	0	0	0	0	0	0
Euron Greyjoy The new King of the Iron Islands, after killing his brother Balon Greyjoy. He is described as cunning, ruthless, and with a touch of madness.	#16	0	0	0	0	0	0
Sansa Stark The second eldest of the Stark children. After being held as a prisoner of House Bolton, Sansa managed to escape and, with the help of Jon Snow and the Knights of the Vale, defeated Ramsay Bolton to reclaim Winterfell for the Starks. She is a huge fan of lemon cakes.	#9	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		57	9	30	10	5	3

The Lethal Lions (jffahey)

Character	Drafted	Total	Politics	Insults	Special
Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger) Lord Protector of the Vale, Littlefinger effectively controls the Knights of the Vale through the easily manipulated Robbin Arryn. He is a master manipulator who will stop at nothing for power.	#8	12	12	0	0
Samwell Tarly A steward of the Night's Watch, Samwell has been sent south to Oldtown to begin his training as a Maester. He is a close friend to Jon Snow, and one of the few people known to have killed a White Walker.	#20	12	3	6	3
Jaime Lannister The second of the Lannister children, he is Cersei's lover and twin brother, and also the father of her three (now deceased) bastard children, the supposed sons and daughters of the late King Robert Baratheon. He also serves as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.	#5	6	6	0	0
Jorah Mormont The exiled head of House Mormont. Jorah was previously one of Daenerys Targaryen's most trusted advisors before his banishment and subsequent infection with the fatal greyscale disease. As Daenerys leaves for Westeros, he wanders Essos in search of a cure.	#17	6	0	0	6
Beric Dondarrion Lord of Blackhaven, bannermen to House Baratheon. He leads the Brotherhood Without Banners, an outlaw fighting group in the Riverlands.	#32	0	0	0	0
Ed Sheeran	#41	0	0	0	0
Nymeria Sand One of Oberyn Martell's bastards, known as Sand Snakes. She's into whips.	#44	0	0	0	0
Theon Greyjoy Heir to the Iron Islands, and formerly a ward of House Stark. Theon is slowly recovering from physical and mental breakdown during his time as a prisoner of Ramsay Bolton. He currently accompanies his sister Yara Greyjoy, who has pledged her Ironborn forces to the cause of Daenerys Targaryen.	#29	0	0	0	0
Totals		36	21	6	9

Political Wins

25:34 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

After the latest rejected plea by Jon Snow to get Daenerys to assist in the war with the White Walkers, Tyrion convinces the team on a different course to try to unite all three monarchs together:

Jon Snow: "We'll fight with the men we have. Unless you'll join us."
Daenerys: "And give the country to Cersei? As soon as I march away, she marches in."
Tyrion: "Perhaps not. Cersei thinks the Army of the Dead is nothing but a story made up by wet nurses to frighten children. What if we prove her wrong?
Jon: "I don't think she'll come see the dead at my invitation."
Tyrion: "So bring the dead to her." (Convincing Argument)

32:25 (+3) Jaime Lannister:

Jaime is taken by Bronn to the dungeons beneath the Red Keep, where he finds his fugitive brother Tyrion who has arranged a meeting with him there. (Secret Discovery)

submitted by hindsight44 (approved!)

Dang, I am kind of regretting losing the "willfully told" provision. It was working as a decent catch-all to exclude a lot of stuff like this that does technically fit but we sort of know it is not a powerful secret that goes anywhere. Anyhow for consistency's sake I'll add it in, I feel like I want to do more thinking about Secrets next season. -nyan

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2017 Aug 15 Lem Lemoncake likes this
damned if you do, damned if you don't -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 15
I think you should add the caveat that being willfully told a secret only counts if the only people who know the secret are the person telling the secret in the person being told secret. That still allows for secret discovery when it's not willingly told, but that puts an end to potential secret chains. What happens if Cersei told someone that Olenna killed Joffrey? What happens if that person tells them? Where does it end? -alicehanners

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2017 Aug 15 nyan likes this
*and the person, not in the person -alicehanners

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2017 Aug 15

32:25 (+3) Bronn:

Bronn finds Tyrion in the dungeons below the Red Keep, later arranging a secret meeting between him and Jaime. (Secret Discovery)

submitted by hindsight44 (approved!)

41:13 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

After Tyrion and Jaime's secret meeting, Cersei agrees to the truce with Daenerys while they await for Jon to return with proof of the White Walker situation.

Cersei: "I've come to believe that an accommodation with the Dragon Queen could be in our immediate interest. She has the numbers. If we want to beat her, we have to be clever. We have to fight her like Father would have." (Deals Brokered)

41:13 (+3) Jaime Lannister:

After Jaime and Tyrion's secret meeting, Cersei agrees to the truce with Daenerys while they await for Jon to return with proof of the White Walker situation.

Cersei: "I've come to believe that an accommodation with the Dragon Queen could be in our immediate interest. She has the numbers. If we want to beat her, we have to be clever. We have to fight her like Father would have." (Deals Brokered)

48:41 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell steals several books and records from the restricted area of the library and abandons the Citadel with Gilly and little Sam.

Gilly: "Are you sure you want to do this? You always wanted to be a Maester."
Samwell: "I'm tired of reading about the achievements of better men." (Act of Betrayal)

51:24 (+3) Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger):

Littlefinger acquires the only copy of a raven letter written by Sansa while she was in King's Landing, when she was compelled by Cersei to ask Robb Stark to come south and bend the knee.

Maester Wolkan: "I found it, my Lord. It took some searching. Maester Luwin's archives are very thorough."
Petyr: "You're sure this is the only copy in Winterfell?
Wolkan: "Yes, my Lord."
Petyr: "Lady Stark thanks you for your service." (Secret Discovery)

Ehhh. :| Secret? -xdwxrd

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2017 Aug 16
He already knew about this, how else would he ask for that specific letter? -hkeseyan

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2017 Aug 16
It does fall a little bit between Secret and acquiring a valuable item, like a weapon. He knows of the existence of the letter, but now he wields that information on concrete form which he can use to blackmail Sansa, influence the Northern lords, or sow the seeds of doubt to Arya. -nyan

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2017 Aug 16
it's not a secret but it is a Secret Discovery... the letter was clearly not known to exist among others in Winterfell. -pacelli929

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2017 Aug 17 nyan likes this
Yeah, it's not a secret discovery for 'this' character though. He's not discovering anything, why is he getting points for it. -xdwxrd

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2017 Aug 17
I could change it to "loot" which was a new subcategory added in another discussion about Cersei/Tycho acquiring the Tyrell gold and securing a new Iron Bank loan. I think people could agree it is like a New Weapon, but an informational one rather than a physical one? In any case the scores are the same. -nyan

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2017 Aug 18 jedjackoway likes this

51:24 (+6) Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger):

Littlefinger has been using Maester Wolkan to dig through the Winterfell archives, portraying it as a command by Sansa Stark.

Maester Wolkan: "I found it, my Lord. It took some searching. Maester Luwin's archives are very thorough."
Petyr: "You're sure this is the only copy in Winterfell?
Wolkan: "Yes, my Lord."
Petyr: "Lady Stark thanks you for your service." (Act of Betrayal)

53:54 (+3) Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger):

Littlefinger snoops from the shadows, having observed Arya Stark tracking him and breaking into his room. (Secret Discovery)

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

4:22 (+3) Bronn:

to Jaime: "Listen to me, cunt. Until I get what I'm owed, a dragon doesn't get to kill you. You don't get to kill you. Only I get to kill you." (Funny Line)

4:35 (+3) Bronn:

Jaime: "That was only one of them. She has two more. If she decides to use them, to really use them-"
Bronn: "You're fucked."
Jaime: "Don't you mean we're fucked?"
Bronn: "No, I do not." (Funny Line)

This is part of a convo where Bronn also talks about the stupidity of Jaime running up to a dragon to try and 'end the war'. Also deciding to no longer fight for your army because it faces certain defeat is a fighting strategy. (live to fight another day) Any love for this being a Bronn special? I feel like hes talks alot about fighting this episode and last but hasnt got any points for it. -hindsight44

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2017 Aug 15
Need to address the submissions from E4. I didn't initially score any of these since they seemed to fall short of Bronn's previous lines, which were generally more instructive or "technical", and these were mostly general comments about the battle (any soldier could have said them, they weren't specific to Bronn's expertise). I think some of these lines could work though, but I do think there's a line that prevents Bronn's special from being a score anytime he says anything battle-related.

There's a list of existing scores for Bronn's special if you scroll down: http://fantasora.com/char/23 -nyan

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2017 Aug 15
I hear what youre saying and i think if you take everything Bronn has said about fighting in the past two episodes there are about ten different quotes that can be directly linked to fighting. Im not saying he should get points for everything said but i think its even more extreme to give him none at all.

In e4: Discussing with Jaime whether or not to stay is directly talking strategy, so is in a later scene deciding whether or not who is best fit to use the Scorpion.

E5: Letting Jaime know that riding up to a dragon to end a war and then saying you will no longer fight for him because its a lost cause is about fighting strategy(i think this combined points should be one special.) Also in a later scene telling Jaime the reason he can fight in old age is because he trains alot is also talking fighting strategy.

i would also suggest that there is some language put in Bronns special that it requires his expertise for it to count. Cersei isnt an expert at pouring wine, Sansa isnt an expert at crying, There isnt a specific type of book sam has to read for it to be read from a book. I chose Bronn because he is the #2 to the General of the Lannister army and they would be talking about general fighting strategies alot. If i knew that it was only expertise i would have chosen someone different. Also Davos says funny things alot that didnt stop him from getting 30 points for every single joke he made. -hindsight44

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2017 Aug 15 nyan, talindsey, elemnwuke, alih1991, 2 others like this
So for Bronn's special, I've added one in from E4 here, and you can find the discussion there about my thoughts on the criteria for Bronn's "strategy/tactics" line: http://fantasora.com/event/3455

I'll agree it's not so well written - you'll see there is a common thread in the previous scores that Bronn has a hard-on for trenches being dug the right way, having proper footwork, and what kind of armor he prefers to wear and that was the idea behind his Special. They're lines about this really niche fighting stuff that only Bronn would think about. Contrast to here, where you could literally drop in any character that could have told Jaime "Three Dragons? You're fucked." If he started talking about the weight of the bolts he fired or how thick the dragon scale was, that's a classic Bronn line.

I've changed the wording a bit on Bronn's special to better reflect that - it now reads "+1 point when he gives expert critique/advice on fighting strategy". -nyan

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2017 Aug 18

4:45 (+3) Bronn:

Bronn: "Dragons are where our partnership ends. I'm not gonna be around when those things start spitting fire on King's Landing."
Jaime: "I have to tell Cersei."
Bronn: "May as well jump back in that river." (Funny Line)

24:16 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

Tyrion: "Who's that (raven letter) for?"
Varys: "Jon Snow."
Tyrion: "Did you read it?"
Varys: "It's a sealed scroll for the King in the North."
...
Tyrion: "What's it say?" (Funny Line)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

31:51 (+3) Bronn:

Jaime: "We don't have time for this, we should be preparing the city for a siege. The Dothraki are coming."
Bronn: "All the more reason for you to train. Unless you plan on fighting Dothraki twelve-year-olds." (Witty Insult)

32:04 (+3) Bronn:

Jaime: "Why (do swordfight training) down here?"
Bronn: "I don't think you want people to see how you look swinging that thing yet." (Witty Insult)

32:52 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

Jaime: "I once told Bronn that if I ever saw you again, I'd cut you in half."
Tyrion: "...it'll take you a while with a sparring sword." (Funny Line)

39:11 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

First Gold Cloak: "That dwarf..."
Second Gold Cloak: "Where'd you get that scar?"
Tyrion: "Fish hook. Some men you just can't teach." (Funny Line)

39:40 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

Davos introduces Tyrion to Gendry, who has just smashed in the heads of two investigating Gold Cloaks.

Davos: "This is Gendry."
Tyrion: "He'll do." (Funny Line)

44:55 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

to Jorah Mormont: "You may not believe it, but I've missed you, Mormont. Nobody glowers quite like you. Not even Grey Worm." (Witty Insult)

47:05 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Gilly: "Guess how many windows are in the Great Sept of Baelor.
Sam: "None anymore." (Funny Line)

47:58 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Sam goes on a rant to Gilly about the order of Maesters: "We can all become slavering, murderous imbeciles in thrall to evil incarnate as long as we can have access to the full records of High Septon Maynard's 15,782 shits!" (Witty Insult)

submitted by hkeseyan (approved!)

Glasses of Wine Consumed

23:03 (+5) Tyrion Lannister:

Tyrion drinks while discussing the burning of the Tarlys with Varys. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

24:11 (+5) Tyrion Lannister:

Tyrion drinks from the refill after Varys finishes off the cup of wine he was originally drinking. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Deaths

10:54 (+5) Randyll Tarly:

After refusing to bend the knee, Randyll is burned to ashes by Drogon's dragonfire alongside his son Dickon.

Daenerys: "Lord Randyll Tarly, Dickon Tarly, I, Daenerys of House Targaryen, First of My Name, Breaker of Chains, and Mother of Dragons, sentence you to die. Dracarys." (Death)

Special

17:18 (+3) Jorah Mormont:

Qhono?: "This man says he is your friend, Khaleesi."
Daenerys: "He is my friend." (Special)

17:42 (+3) Jorah Mormont:

Upon his return to Dragonstone, Jorah is introduced to the new Daario: "Jon Snow, this is Ser Jorah Mormont, an old friend." (Special)

45:27 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

Tyrion hands the sentimental slaver's coin to Jorah, reminiscing briefly on their slave days in Meereen before Mormont leaves for Eastwatch. (Special)

submitted by hkeseyan (approved!)

46:49 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Sam reads from a book as he transcribes it onto a fresh set of paper, before handing it over to Baby Sam. (Special)

submitted by hkeseyan (approved!)

The Feels

45:28 (+0) Tyrion Lannister:

Tyrion and Jorah share a brief reunion before Jorah sails off to the Wall on Jon's expedition to kidnap a wight..

Tyrion: "This is the coin the slaver gave me when I suggested he free us and pay us, remember?"
Jorah: "It was supposed to last us the rest of our lives."
Tyrion: "Take it with you. But bring it back. Our Queen needs you." (Warm Fuzzy Moment)

45:28 (+0) Jorah Mormont:

45:47 (+0) Jorah Mormont:

Daenerys says her goodbyes to Jorah once again, as she takes his hands into hers.

Daenerys: "We should be better at saying farewell by now."
Jorah: "Your Grace, I-" (stunned speechless by actual physical contact) (Warm Fuzzy Moment)

9 more comments - see full thread

There's a few good articles and reddit threads about this but yeah I feel the same. I think running out of the pre-written book material, and deciding to just run with the 7 episodes of concrete content they had rather than flesh things out, has hurt them. On one hand, Benioff and Weiss were never going to be able to write out the same level of plot intricacies that GRRM would, and the attempts we've seen have been god awful (everything about Dorne, and I'd argue the treatment of Euron). But there are a lot of competent writers out there from other shows, I feel like they had the budget to create something here. -nyan

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2017 Aug 18 hkeseyan likes this
Theres no way the creators can say there wasnt enough material to make three more episodes. In e5 Gendry comes back, Jorah comes back, Bran sends a raven to dragon stone and they all end up at fucking eastwatch together. Not to mention cutting off a conversation half way through between Tyrion and Jaime that could have been a great fucking scene. Seriously missed opportunity. Also The brotherhood just magically going from the riverlands to eastwatch with no scenes in between. Im gonna beyond pissed if the writers dont take advantage of The Hound and Tormund being together.Also Dorne is a great example, usually the show is really good at atleast representing who the characters are if they cant fit in the plot points. But they just glossed over Doran and made him look like a pussy and Areo Hotah didnt kill one fucking person. The board probably got together and realized they would make the same revenue by making either 7 or 10 episodes. -hindsight44

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2017 Aug 18 nyan and hkeseyan like this
Yeah there was a ton more for Jaime-Tyrion! This was their first meeting since S4! All the pent up resentment, Jaime discovering that Tyrion wasn't behind Joffrey after all, Tyrion thinking he'd almost lose his brother for that stupid charge against the dragon! And instead after 10s Jaime just interrupts his brother so they can move on to talking about what Daenerys, Jon Snow, and Cersei want to do. grrr -nyan

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2017 Aug 18 hkeseyan likes this

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