Matchup: Gendry's Plotline vs House Trump of King's Landing for Ep 10

Hamilton League (Creative Name TBD)

Gendry's Plotline (douglasjsantoro)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Deaths	Special
Cersei Lannister Queen Regent of the Seven Kingdoms and mother to King Tommen. Afflicted by a rare water allergy.	#4	627	598	9	6	5	0	9
Walder Frey The elderly Lord of the Twins and now Lord of Riverrun after his betrayal of Robb Stark and the Northern forces.	#45	26	0	6	0	10	10	0
Lancel Lannister A cousin to the Lannister children. In a past life he was a stuttering servant to King Robert Baratheon and secret consort to his cousin Queen Cersei Lannister. Lancel now serves as a leading member of the Sparrows, a dangerously militant religious group whose power over King's Landing is growing.	#29	18	5	3	0	0	10	0
Mace Tyrell The head of House Tyrell and Lord of Highgarden. He is the father of Loras and Margaery. While bumbling and appearing incompetent, he heads a powerful House and serves as both Master of Ships and Master of Coin on King Tommen Baratheon's Small Council.	#61	10	0	0	0	0	10	0
Gregor Clegane (The Mountain) A knight and the head of House Clegane, bannermen to the Lannisters. He defeated Prince Oberyn Martell in a trial by combat for Tyrion Lannister's role in King Joffrey's death, although he was gravely injured in the fight. He appears to have recovered (in some form) under Grand Maester Qyburn's care, and returns to serve as a member of the Kingsguard.	#36	5	5	0	0	0	0	0
Randyll Tarly Samwell Tarly's disapproving father. He is the Lord of House Tarly, and was one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros.	#52	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Jorah Mormont The exiled head of House Mormont. Jorah was previously one of Daenerys Targaryen's most trusted advisors before his banishment. He returned to her service during a revolt in the fighting pits of Meereen, and now travels with Daario Naharis to rescue Daenerys, who has disappeared along with one of her dragons, Drogon.	#13	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Rickard Stark The father of Lord Eddard Stark. He was burned alive by the Mad King, Aerys Targaryen, which led to the Stark and Baratheon rebellion that overthrew the Targaryen dynasty.	#77	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
High Priestess Kinvara The High Priestess of the Red Temple in Volantis.	#68	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Davos Seaworth Ser Davos is a knight serving Stannis Baratheon, and one of his most trusted advisors. He is often at odds with the Red Priestess Melisandre.	#20	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		686	608	18	6	15	30	9

House Trump of King's Landing (clouie)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Deaths	Special
Jon Snow The bastard son of Ned Stark, and the current Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. After guiding the Wildlings to safety in the aftermath of the Battle of Castle Black and the attack on Hardhome, he was betrayed by a mutiny of the Night's Watch, and left for dead in the snow.	#8	30	0	21	3	0	6
High Sparrow The leader of the Sparrows, a religious movement within the Faith of the Seven. After being appointed as High Septon by Cersei Lannister, he has lead a sweeping inquiry to root out moral corruption in King's Landing, imprisoning Loras Tyrell, Margaery Tyrell, and Cersei Lannister.	#25	21	5	6	0	10	0
Sansa Stark The second eldest of the Stark children. Sansa has spent many of her past years as prisoner to the Lannisters and more recently, House Bolton, the new Warden of the North. Currently she is married to Ramsay, the heir of House Bolton, who keeps her imprisoned in Winterfell and tortures her sadistically. During the Bolton battle against Stannis Baratheon's forces, Sansa escapes over the Winterfell walls with the help of Theon Greyjoy, and the two make their way as far from the Boltons as possible. She is a huge fan of lemon cakes.	#9	6	0	3	3	0	0
Balon Greyjoy The head of House Greyjoy and Lord of the Iron Islands. He is the father of Theon, who was given up as a ward to the Starks after Balon's failed rebellion against the Iron Throne.	#73	1	0	0	0	1	0
Beric Dondarrion Lord of Blackhaven, bannermen to House Baratheon. He now leads the Brotherhood Without Banners, an outlaw fighting group in the Riverlands.	#57	0	0	0	0	0	0
Ellaria Sand The former paramour of Prince Oberyn. She is also the mother of several of his bastard children, known as the Sand Snakes, and plots revenge against the Lannisters for Oberyn's death.	#41	0	0	0	0	0	0
Euron Greyjoy An uncle to Theon Greyjoy, Euron is an infamous pirate who has terrorized seas all around the world. He is described as cunning, ruthless, and with a touch of madness.	#40	0	0	0	0	0	0
Sandor Clegane (The Hound) A fearsome warrior known as the Hound. Sandor formerly served in the Kingsguard of Joffrey Baratheon and accompanied Arya Stark on her travels. He was left for dead after a fight with Brienne of Tarth.	#56	0	0	0	0	0	0
Theon Greyjoy Heir to the Iron Islands, and formerly a ward of House Stark. Theon has been broken through torture by the hands of Ramsay Bolton, but has escaped Winterfell along with Sansa Stark during the chaos of the Battle of Winterfell.	#24	0	0	0	0	0	0
Edmure Tully Catelyn Stark's brother, and the heir to House Tully and Riverrun. He is held as a prisoner of Lord Walder Frey after the betrayal at the Red Wedding.	#72	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		58	5	30	6	11	6

Kills

9:05 (+5) High Sparrow:

The High Sparrow orders the seven-pointed star to be carved into Loras Tyrell's forehead after his confessions, as a symbol of his sins and newfound faith in the Seven.
Margaery Tyrell: "You mutilated him. You gave me your word." (Major Injury of Named Character)

How is this a kill? -tylermanhart

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2016 Jun 28
Shouldn't Lancel or the Sparrow cutting get the points? -tylermanhart

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2016 Jun 28
That requires some skill -tylermanhart

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2016 Jun 28
These are major injury points, since the disfigurement is permanent. Lancel gets credit for the same (right below this one). Lancel's is the direct action, and the High Sparrow is the commanded one (since Lancel is a prisoner and willingly submits, it's regarded as "unskilled"). -nyan

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2016 Jun 28

9:13 (+5) Lancel Lannister:

Lancel carves the seven-pointed star into Loras Tyrell's forehead after his confessions, as a symbol of Loras' sins and newfound faith in the Seven. (Major Injury of Named Character)

17:14 (+60) Cersei Lannister:

A candle burns down to ignite the cache of wildfire buried beneath the Sept of Baelor, creating a massive detonation that obliterates the Sept and the audience awaiting Cersei's Trial by Seven. The High Sparrow, Lancel Lannister, Kevan Lannister, Mace Tyrell, Loras Tyrell, and Margaery Tyrell perish as the wildfire explosion erupts through the floor of the Sept. (Kill of Named Character)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

115 more comments - see full thread

Part 2: So here's what we'll do.

Camp A will be a "default", as I think it's the general impression most viewers had on watching the scene, if they didn't dive into the nitty-gritty of scoring criteria. All of the leagues currently on Ruleset 3.1 and 4.0, Cersei will keep all the kill points.

For Camp B, all of the "reasonable split" scores will be added (Lem, Ramsay, Jordaario), under new Rulesets called 3.1b and 4.0b. These are the same as the existing Rulesets, just with these kill points added. Consider this a branch of the rules, enabling Leagues to self-determine which interpretation of the scoring criteria they want to apply.

I'll also be developing a new Ruleset 5.0 for the rewatches and S7 - it'll include the removal of commanded kills and the addition of some new political scoring categories to address some of the events that have felt like they weren't properly credited this season. The exact details need to be fine-tuned (the rewatches will be good practice), but ultimately it should address each of this season's controversial scores in a way that's unambiguous and properly rewarding for the magnitude of the characters' actions on the show.

At the end of this discussion, I personally fell into Camp C ("nothing counts"). However my read on that is that most players, in their gut, wanted the scoring to be Camp A or Camp B, but ended up supporting the strictness of Camp C because the other options create some hard-to-reconcile precedents. As a scorekeeper, there's some wariness that both Ruleset 4.0 and 4.0b will now be slightly broken in a "crap, this is going to be a mess for some future S7 events that I can imagine happening" sense.

The 5.0 revision of the rules should be the answer to that concern - we won't have to worry about these controversial 4.0/4.0b scores establishing bad precedents for future scoring, because we'll be using a completely new Ruleset 5.0 by then. In that sense, both of these bends for Camp A and Camp B might be considered do-right scores for the popular player sentiment on who deserves points, in a way that's safely not precedent-setting for the future Ruleset 5.0.

@jedjackoway and @bookworm13457 were the two main commenters that seemed to subscribe to Camp C without a personal leaning towards A or B. Hopefully your concerns were precedent-based like mine, and using A or B will be acceptable for your S6 scores (if not, I can always add in 3.1c/4.0c rulesets as well).

So in summary, this gives all leagues a Ruleset choice that fits with their preferred scoring style, and gives us a path forward to avoid this controversy in the future.

Hopefully this is a happy resolution for everyone playing this season. I'm off to count up some villagers and arrowed corpses. -nyan

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2016 Jul 1 bookworm13457, twalters, righteous like this
Thanks for all of your hard work @Nyan. I do not envy your task of counting the soldiers kill in the Battle of the Bastards. Looking forward to 1-2 more seasons of this! -bookworm13457

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2016 Jul 1 nyan, righteous, twalters, jedjackoway, 2 others like this
The above changes are now live! Check your league settings for the Ruleset 3.1b scoring option. (ended up skipping on 4.0b as it turns out hardly any leagues are on it - of the active commenters, only @Lem Lemoncake used it).

If you happen to be in a Public League and would like switch it do a different ruleset, just let me know directly on FB/email - I'll switch these with preference going to the desired Ruleset of players who have been active in the scoring discussions.

For those curious, here's are those 3.1b events (screenshots of the villagers count and every. freaking. arrow. death.):

Ramsay volleys (36 soldiers and horseys): http://fantasora.com/event/2927
Lem Lemoncloak's kill commands (32 villagers): http://fantasora.com/event/3056
Gatins 1/7th share of 32 villager kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3062
Qyburn 50% wildfire kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3067
Cersei 50% wildfire kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3066 -nyan

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2016 Jul 1 rajatnigam, bookworm13457, righteous, twalters like this

17:15 (+452) Cersei Lannister:

A candle burns down to ignite the cache of wildfire buried beneath the Sept of Baelor, creating a massive detonation that obliterates the Sept and the audience awaiting Cersei's Trial by Seven. Along with the High Sparrow, Small Council, and the Tyrell royal family, 226 other members of the audience perish as the wildfire explosion erupts through the floor of the Sept. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

I finally counted them all. Here's the wide shot! https://imgur.com/ft412aT -nyan

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2016 Jun 28
I'm keeping my arguments in the other thread for simplicity's sake. But why is this not going to Qyburn as well? -alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28
There's no confirmation that Qyburn did this however we do know that Cersei did. -klov3r

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2016 Jun 28
Just saw the "inside episodes 9&10" on HBO and they stated they used 287 extras for the scene. -alexander.hilton91

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2016 Jun 29 nyan and bookworm13457 like this
Stephanie on the FB page brought this up as well - I think we'll keep the criteria as just the on-screen body count, as it's easily scorable and we won't always have this kind of behind-the-scenes info available. -nyan

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2016 Jun 29

17:30 (+4) Cersei Lannister:

Two King's Landing pedestrians are consumed in the Sept of Baelor wildfire explosion. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

17:31 (+76) Cersei Lannister:

38 pedestrians in the square outside the Sept of Baelor are overrun as the explosion of wildfire spills outward onto the streets of King's Landing. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

17:36 (+6) Cersei Lannister:

A King's Landing pedestrian is crushed by a bell jettisoned from the explosion at the Sept of Baelor. Two other pedestrians are also destroyed as the alley becomes engulfed in wildfire. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

22:00 (+5) Gregor Clegane (The Mountain):

Septa Unella screams in agony as Cersei leaves Gregor Clegane to slowly torture her.
Cersei: "Now? Today? You're not going to die today. You're not going to die for quite a while." (Major Injury of Named Character)

Political Wins

0:00 (+3) Sansa Stark:

Littlefinger pledges his support of House Stark to Sansa Stark. "News of this battle will spread quickly through the Seven Kingdoms. I've declared for House Stark for all to hear." (New Follower/Prisoner)

submitted by xdwxrd (approved!)

8:37 (+3) High Sparrow:

Loras renounces his claims to House Tyrell and swears himself to the High Sparrow and the Faith of the Seven.
Loras Tyrell: "I will abandon the Tyrell name and all that goes with it. I will renounce my lordship and my claims on Highgarden. I will never marry and I will never father children."
High Sparrow: "Brother Loras, I ask you to dedicate your life to the Seven Gods. Will you fight to defend your faith against heretics and apostates?"
Loras Tyrell: "I will." (New Follower/Prisoner)

10:04 (+3) High Sparrow:

The High Sparrow reneges on his agreement to release Loras Tyrell after his confessions (presumably unharmed).
Margaery Tyrell: "You mutilated him. You gave me your word."
High Sparrow: "And I have kept my word. Once the Queen Mother's trial is concluded, Brother Loras is free to leave." (Act of Betrayal)

17:02 (+3) Lancel Lannister:

Lancel follows one of Qyburn's little birds to the King's Landing underground. There he is stabbed, but crawls to discover the hidden cache of wildfire buried beneath the Sept of Baelor. (Secret Discovery)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

Seems like the little birds quite deliberately led Lancel there to show him, disqualifying it from the secret discovery. -nyan

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2016 Jun 27 dopeghoti likes this
I think the little birds brought him down there to stab him, not necessarily to show him. They stabbed him in the hall, and then he somehow stumbled upon the cache of wildfire, and tried to blow it out. So I feel they are independent events. -skywalkerdude

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2016 Jun 27 nyan, righteous, alicehanners like this
I didn't think they led him their deliberately. Why would they do that? Led or not led, still discovered a 'secret', yah. -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 28 righteous likes this
REgardless of the scoring, can I say that I thought that was tacky and terrible television. That Lancel would swerve from his mission to get Cersei because, what, he saw a little kid? Are there no little kids in KL? Then, he gets stabbed and suddenly loses use of both of his legs? Did the kid stab him in the spine and paralyze him? wat
-alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28 nyan and righteous like this
Read this somewhere and this makes the most sense to me:

The little bird was spying on the trial and was running away to give information to Cersei about what had happened. He happened to be followed by Lancel, so the little bird hid, stabbed Lancel when he had the chance, and then took off. I think it should count as a secret discovery -wynnch

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2016 Jun 29

17:18 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei destroys the Sept of Baelor in an explosion of wildfire, killing most of the Tyrell royal family and the King's Small Council. (Act of Betrayal)

Eh, really? She all but declared herself accountable to no one when talking to Grandma Tyrell.
-alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28
One of the conditions of her release from imprisonment was that she would stand trial later. Though she swore that she would she decided to skip her court date to watch some fireworks. -jimwangerin

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2016 Jun 28
It seemed like Cersei and the Small Council had reached a sort of detente when we last left off, after they agreed on Jaime's plan to march the Tyrell army in. Maybe they didn't trust her 100%, but certainly none of them expected she would outright murder them. -nyan

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin likes this

18:22 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei takes Septa Unella prisoner, tying her down to a table as she tortures her. "Confess. It felt good. Beating me, starving me, frightening me, humiliating me. You didn't do it because you cared about my atonement. You did it because it felt good. ... I killed your High Sparrow, and all his little sparrows ... because it felt good to watch them burn. It felt good to imagine their shock and their pain. No thought has ever given me greater joy." (New Follower/Prisoner)

22:30 (+3) Walder Frey:

Ownership of Riverrun transfers back to Walder Frey after the Lannister army helps to retake it from the Blackfish.
Walder Frey: "Riverrun belonged to House Tully for a thousand years. Now it's mine. What do you call that? Victory." (Acquire a New Castle/City/Army/Loot)

24:44 (+3) Walder Frey:

Walder Frey re-claims Edmure Tully as his prisoner. "Edmure is back in a cell. Can't go killing my son by law. It wouldn't be right. Give the family a bad name." (New Follower/Prisoner)

35:33 (+3) Jon Snow:

After Davos reveals that Melisandre had burned Princess Shireen at the stake and asks permission to execute her, Jon Snow elects the middle route and excommunicates her from the North. "Ride south today. If you return to the North, I'll have you hanged as a murderer." (Executive Decision)

59:43 (+9) Jon Snow:

The Northern Lords Madnerly, Glover, Cerwyn declare their allegiance for Jon Snow as the King in the North.

Lord Wyman Manderly: "Lady Mormont speaks harshly, and truly ... I didn't think we'd find another king in my lifetime. I didn't commit my men to your cause, 'cause I didn't want more Manderly's dying for nothing. But I was wrong. Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding. He is the White Wolf. The King in the North."

Lord Robett Glover: "I did not fight beside you on the field and I will regret that until my dying day. A man can only admit when he was wrong and ask forgiveness ... There will be more fights to come. House Glover will stand behind House Stark as we have for a thousand years. And I will stand behind Jon Snow. The King in the North!" (New Follower/Prisoner)

61:13 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon gains the allegiance of Lord Yohn Royce of the Vale, as he and the Northern lords declare Jon as King in the North. (New Follower/Prisoner)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

Lord Royce is in the hall and can be seen drawing his sword along with the others. He doesn't have his own speech moment like the other Northern lords, and it's odd to imagine he would just drop his allegiance to Robin Arryn like that, which makes the score somewhat debatable. -nyan

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2016 Jun 28
Dunno how it works, but LF did mention the vale is now sworn to Stark? -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 28
Yeah, Baelish does say "I've declared for House Stark, for all to hear." So, I think Jon should definitely get points for his new followers from the Vale -cfitzgerald

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2016 Jun 28

61:17 (+3) Jon Snow:

Davos Seaworth rises with the other Northern lords in declaring their allegiance to Jon Snow as the King in the North. (New Follower/Prisoner)

61:25 (+3) Jon Snow:

After Lyanna Mormont's rousing speech, the Northern lords declare for Jon Snow as the new King in the North.

Lyanna Mormont: "But House Mormont remembers. The North remembers. We know no king but the King in the North whose name is Stark. I don't care if he's a bastard. Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins. He's my king from this day until his last day." (New Title)

63:11 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Qyburn: "I now proclaim Cersei of the House Lannister, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms. Long may she reign." (New Title)

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

21:10 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

to Septa Unella: "This is Ser Gregor Clegane. He's quiet, too. Your Gods have forsaken you. This is your god now."
(Threat)

Is this really a threat, she's kinda just telling her whats up, not threatening something will happen if something else happens. -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 28 alicehanners likes this
Just 'cause it's flowery doesn't make this a good threat.
-alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin and jedjackoway like this
If I was strapped to a board, and Cersei introduced her giant of a bodyguard to me as my "new god", I'd feel pretty threatened. -marcelcdn

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2016 Jun 28 nyan, bookworm13457, wynnch, kayeexau like this
I feel threatened by a lot of things all the time. Doesn't mean they threatened me. -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 29

21:49 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

as she locks Septa Unella in with Gregor Clegane: "Shame. Shame. Shame." (Witty Insult)

38:05 (+3) Jon Snow:

Sansa: "A raven came from the Citadel. A white raven. Winter is here."
Jon: "Well, father always promised." (Funny Line)

submitted by cfitzgerald (approved!)

Under which category would this fall though? -Laxis

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2016 Jun 28
A funny line. They both kind of chuckle at it and I know I smiled, so I think it should count -cfitzgerald

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2016 Jun 28
Definitely funny line. In the comedy world this is what's called a "callback" where you reference an earlier joke, in this case the earlier joke was "Winter is Coming." -mg.flanigan11

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin and nyan like this

51:28 (+3) Sansa Stark:

Petyr Baelish: "Every time I'm faced with a decision, I close my eyes and see the same picture. Whenever I consider an action, I ask myself will this action help to make this picture a reality? ... A picture of me on the Iron Throne... and you by my side."
Sansa: "It's a pretty picture." (Witty Insult)

Glasses of Wine Consumed

17:51 (+5) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei drinks as she watches the wildfire explosion engulf the Sept of Baelor from the safety of her chambers in the Red Keep. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

24:53 (+5) Walder Frey:

Walder drinks from his cup after sitting down to chat with Jaime during the Frey-Lannister feast to celebrate the retaking of Riverrun. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

47:33 (+5) Walder Frey:

Walder drinks from his chalice while waiting for his sons to arrive for lunch. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Deaths

17:17 (+10) Lancel Lannister:

Lancel Lannister is lured into the King's Landing underground where he is stabbed by one of Qyburn's little birds. Finding a cache of wildfire, he is too late to stop the candles from burning down and igniting it, engulfing him in the explosion. (Death)

17:25 (+10) High Sparrow:

The High Sparrow is engulfed as the wildfire explosion rips through the floor of the Sept of Baelor. (Death)

17:27 (+10) Mace Tyrell:

Mace Tyrell is engulfed as the wildfire explosion rips through the Sept of Baelor, destroying the entire section of King's Landing and killing all those inside. (Death)

49:35 (+10) Walder Frey:

After being served a meat pie baked from his own sons, Walder Frey has his throat slit by Arya Stark in the very same room where he orchestrated the betrayal of Robb and Catelyn Stark. "My name is Arya Stark. I want you to know that. The last thing you're ever going to see is a Stark smiling down at you as you die." (Death)

+1 for Balon Greyjoy

Special

10:26 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei pours herself a glass of wine while observing the events at the Sept of Baelor from afar. (Special)

18:15 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei pours out her glass of wine over Septa Unella's face as she is bound to a table. "Confess." (Special)

18:32 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

After emptying her glass, Cersei returns to pour out an entire pitcher of wine over Septa Unella's face as she tortures her. (Special)

52:02 (+3) Jon Snow:

Petyr Baelish: "Who should the North rally behind? A trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark born here at Winterfell? Or a motherless bastard born in the south?" (Special)

59:17 (+3) Jon Snow:

Lyanna Mormont: "I don't care if he's a bastard. Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins." (Special)

©
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