Matchup: floppy wieners vs R+L=J for Ep 10

floppy wieners (rock.star200839)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Deaths	Special
Cersei Lannister Queen Regent of the Seven Kingdoms and mother to King Tommen. Afflicted by a rare water allergy.	#3	627	598	9	6	5	0	9
Bronn A former sellsword, who has risen through the ranks of nobility thanks to his fighting skills and work for the Lannisters. He recently accompanied Jaime Lannister on a sensitive diplomatic mission to Dorne to rescue the Princeess Myrcella Baratheon.	#19	14	0	0	9	5	0	0
Melisandre A Red Priestess from Asshai, Melisandre served as a close advisor to Stannis Baratheon until she abandoned his cause at the Battle of Winterfell against the Boltons.	#14	3	0	3	0	0	0	0
Leaf A member of the Children of the Forest. She leads Bran and his companions to cave of the Three-eyed Raven.	#62	1	0	0	0	0	1	0
Trystane Martell Prince Doran Martell's son, and heir to Dorne. He is betrothed to Myrcella Baratheon, and accompanies her back to King's Landing to serve on the Small Council.	#35	1	0	0	0	0	1	0
Doran Martell The head of House Martell of Dorne, and elder brother of Prince Oberyn Martell.	#30	1	0	0	0	0	1	0
Robin Arryn The young, sickly son of the late Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully. He is Lord of the Vale, although Petyr Baelish serves as Lord Protector until he comes of age.	#51	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Nymeria Sand One of Oberyn Martell's bastards, known as Sand Snakes. She wields a whip.	#46	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		647	598	12	15	10	3	9

R+L=J (Dan)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Deaths
Gregor Clegane (The Mountain) A knight and the head of House Clegane, bannermen to the Lannisters. He defeated Prince Oberyn Martell in a trial by combat for Tyrion Lannister's role in King Joffrey's death, although he was gravely injured in the fight. He appears to have recovered (in some form) under Grand Maester Qyburn's care, and returns to serve as a member of the Kingsguard.	#48	5	5	0	0
Tyrion Lannister The third, stunted dwarf of the Lannister children - a fugitive from Westeros after losing his trial for the murder of King Joffrey, he has escaped and found service as an advisor to Daenerys Targaryen.	#1	3	0	3	0
Benjen Stark First Ranger of the Night's Watch - in S1 he disappeared on a ranging north of the Wall and his whereabouts since then are unknown.	-	1	0	0	1
The Waif A disciple in the House of Black & White. Her real identity is unknown, as she is one of the many identities used by the Faceless Men in their work.	-	1	0	0	1
Smalljon Umber The son of Greatjon Umber, heir to House Umber and bannerman to the Starks.	-	1	0	0	1
Jorah Mormont The exiled head of House Mormont. Jorah was previously one of Daenerys Targaryen's most trusted advisors before his banishment. He returned to her service during a revolt in the fighting pits of Meereen, and now travels with Daario Naharis to rescue Daenerys, who has disappeared along with one of her dragons, Drogon.	#17	0	0	0	0
Theon Greyjoy Heir to the Iron Islands, and formerly a ward of House Stark. Theon has been broken through torture by the hands of Ramsay Bolton, but has escaped Winterfell along with Sansa Stark during the chaos of the Battle of Winterfell.	#16	0	0	0	0
Grey Worm The leader of the Unsullied - a highly-trained army of freed slaves who serve Daenerys Targaryen.	#32	0	0	0	0
Totals		11	5	3	3

Kills

17:14 (+60) Cersei Lannister:

A candle burns down to ignite the cache of wildfire buried beneath the Sept of Baelor, creating a massive detonation that obliterates the Sept and the audience awaiting Cersei's Trial by Seven. The High Sparrow, Lancel Lannister, Kevan Lannister, Mace Tyrell, Loras Tyrell, and Margaery Tyrell perish as the wildfire explosion erupts through the floor of the Sept. (Kill of Named Character)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

115 more comments - see full thread

Part 2: So here's what we'll do.

Camp A will be a "default", as I think it's the general impression most viewers had on watching the scene, if they didn't dive into the nitty-gritty of scoring criteria. All of the leagues currently on Ruleset 3.1 and 4.0, Cersei will keep all the kill points.

For Camp B, all of the "reasonable split" scores will be added (Lem, Ramsay, Jordaario), under new Rulesets called 3.1b and 4.0b. These are the same as the existing Rulesets, just with these kill points added. Consider this a branch of the rules, enabling Leagues to self-determine which interpretation of the scoring criteria they want to apply.

I'll also be developing a new Ruleset 5.0 for the rewatches and S7 - it'll include the removal of commanded kills and the addition of some new political scoring categories to address some of the events that have felt like they weren't properly credited this season. The exact details need to be fine-tuned (the rewatches will be good practice), but ultimately it should address each of this season's controversial scores in a way that's unambiguous and properly rewarding for the magnitude of the characters' actions on the show.

At the end of this discussion, I personally fell into Camp C ("nothing counts"). However my read on that is that most players, in their gut, wanted the scoring to be Camp A or Camp B, but ended up supporting the strictness of Camp C because the other options create some hard-to-reconcile precedents. As a scorekeeper, there's some wariness that both Ruleset 4.0 and 4.0b will now be slightly broken in a "crap, this is going to be a mess for some future S7 events that I can imagine happening" sense.

The 5.0 revision of the rules should be the answer to that concern - we won't have to worry about these controversial 4.0/4.0b scores establishing bad precedents for future scoring, because we'll be using a completely new Ruleset 5.0 by then. In that sense, both of these bends for Camp A and Camp B might be considered do-right scores for the popular player sentiment on who deserves points, in a way that's safely not precedent-setting for the future Ruleset 5.0.

@jedjackoway and @bookworm13457 were the two main commenters that seemed to subscribe to Camp C without a personal leaning towards A or B. Hopefully your concerns were precedent-based like mine, and using A or B will be acceptable for your S6 scores (if not, I can always add in 3.1c/4.0c rulesets as well).

So in summary, this gives all leagues a Ruleset choice that fits with their preferred scoring style, and gives us a path forward to avoid this controversy in the future.

Hopefully this is a happy resolution for everyone playing this season. I'm off to count up some villagers and arrowed corpses. -nyan

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2016 Jul 1 bookworm13457, twalters, righteous like this
Thanks for all of your hard work @Nyan. I do not envy your task of counting the soldiers kill in the Battle of the Bastards. Looking forward to 1-2 more seasons of this! -bookworm13457

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2016 Jul 1 nyan, righteous, twalters, jedjackoway, 2 others like this
The above changes are now live! Check your league settings for the Ruleset 3.1b scoring option. (ended up skipping on 4.0b as it turns out hardly any leagues are on it - of the active commenters, only @Lem Lemoncake used it).

If you happen to be in a Public League and would like switch it do a different ruleset, just let me know directly on FB/email - I'll switch these with preference going to the desired Ruleset of players who have been active in the scoring discussions.

For those curious, here's are those 3.1b events (screenshots of the villagers count and every. freaking. arrow. death.):

Ramsay volleys (36 soldiers and horseys): http://fantasora.com/event/2927
Lem Lemoncloak's kill commands (32 villagers): http://fantasora.com/event/3056
Gatins 1/7th share of 32 villager kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3062
Qyburn 50% wildfire kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3067
Cersei 50% wildfire kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3066 -nyan

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2016 Jul 1 rajatnigam, bookworm13457, righteous, twalters like this

17:15 (+452) Cersei Lannister:

A candle burns down to ignite the cache of wildfire buried beneath the Sept of Baelor, creating a massive detonation that obliterates the Sept and the audience awaiting Cersei's Trial by Seven. Along with the High Sparrow, Small Council, and the Tyrell royal family, 226 other members of the audience perish as the wildfire explosion erupts through the floor of the Sept. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

I finally counted them all. Here's the wide shot! https://imgur.com/ft412aT -nyan

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2016 Jun 28
I'm keeping my arguments in the other thread for simplicity's sake. But why is this not going to Qyburn as well? -alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28
There's no confirmation that Qyburn did this however we do know that Cersei did. -klov3r

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2016 Jun 28
Just saw the "inside episodes 9&10" on HBO and they stated they used 287 extras for the scene. -alexander.hilton91

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2016 Jun 29 nyan and bookworm13457 like this
Stephanie on the FB page brought this up as well - I think we'll keep the criteria as just the on-screen body count, as it's easily scorable and we won't always have this kind of behind-the-scenes info available. -nyan

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2016 Jun 29

17:30 (+4) Cersei Lannister:

Two King's Landing pedestrians are consumed in the Sept of Baelor wildfire explosion. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

17:31 (+76) Cersei Lannister:

38 pedestrians in the square outside the Sept of Baelor are overrun as the explosion of wildfire spills outward onto the streets of King's Landing. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

17:36 (+6) Cersei Lannister:

A King's Landing pedestrian is crushed by a bell jettisoned from the explosion at the Sept of Baelor. Two other pedestrians are also destroyed as the alley becomes engulfed in wildfire. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

22:00 (+5) Gregor Clegane (The Mountain):

Septa Unella screams in agony as Cersei leaves Gregor Clegane to slowly torture her.
Cersei: "Now? Today? You're not going to die today. You're not going to die for quite a while." (Major Injury of Named Character)

Political Wins

17:18 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei destroys the Sept of Baelor in an explosion of wildfire, killing most of the Tyrell royal family and the King's Small Council. (Act of Betrayal)

Eh, really? She all but declared herself accountable to no one when talking to Grandma Tyrell.
-alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28
One of the conditions of her release from imprisonment was that she would stand trial later. Though she swore that she would she decided to skip her court date to watch some fireworks. -jimwangerin

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2016 Jun 28
It seemed like Cersei and the Small Council had reached a sort of detente when we last left off, after they agreed on Jaime's plan to march the Tyrell army in. Maybe they didn't trust her 100%, but certainly none of them expected she would outright murder them. -nyan

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin likes this

18:22 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei takes Septa Unella prisoner, tying her down to a table as she tortures her. "Confess. It felt good. Beating me, starving me, frightening me, humiliating me. You didn't do it because you cared about my atonement. You did it because it felt good. ... I killed your High Sparrow, and all his little sparrows ... because it felt good to watch them burn. It felt good to imagine their shock and their pain. No thought has ever given me greater joy." (New Follower/Prisoner)

34:57 (+3) Melisandre:

Melisandre admits to sacrificing Shireen after being exposed by Davos Seaworth, but manages to convince Jon Snow to spare her in the face of the looming White Walker threat.

Melisandre: "I've been ready to die for many years. If the Lord was done with me, so be it, but he's not. You've seen the Night King, Jon Snow. You know the great war is still to come. You know the army of the dead will be upon us soon. And you know I can help you win that war."
Jon Snow: "Ride south today. If you return to the North, I'll have you hanged as a murderer." (Convincing Argument)

submitted by mg.flanigan11 (approved!)

10 more comments - see full thread

I would say survival in that circumstance is evidence of a convincing argument. She had just confessed to murder yet sh's being set free. We'd have to look at the severity of the crime. If you were accused of murder in front of the Sheriff and you confess, but then argue of your use in the world and your spared the penalty of murder, I'd say your argument was convincing. Jon seals the deal on this one when he threatens that he'll "have her hanged for murder" if she returns. That means he's knowingly releasing a murderer. -mg.flanigan11

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2016 Jun 28
I don't think it's clear enough that she convinced Jon to do one thing or another. All we have on Jon's position is "Do you have anything to say for yourself?" which could be considered like a "any last words?" question, but it's just totally apparent what he initially had in mind. -alexanderdropkin

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2016 Jun 29
With all that we know about Jon Snow, I don't think that there was any doubt that he would have had her killed had she not convinced him otherwise. He executed Janos Slynt for disobeying a direct order from the Lord Commander. Considering Melisandre admitted to burning an innocent girl alive, there is no way his default decision wouldn't have been to kill her. But she managed to convince him to not kill her, so I think she should definitely be rewarded points-wise for still being alive even if she was exiled. I don't think we have a prescedent that a character needs to get everything they're arguing for to get the points, so I think successfully convincing Jon to let her live is good enough for points -cfitzgerald

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2016 Jun 29

47:04 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

"I had something made for you. I'm not sure if it's right... Tyrion Lannister, I name you Hand of the Queen." (New Title)

63:11 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Qyburn: "I now proclaim Cersei of the House Lannister, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms. Long may she reign." (New Title)

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

0:00 (+3) Bronn:

to Jaime: "She doesn't want me, she wants your golden fingers up her twat." (Funny Line)

submitted by axhandle (approved!)

21:10 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

to Septa Unella: "This is Ser Gregor Clegane. He's quiet, too. Your Gods have forsaken you. This is your god now."
(Threat)

Is this really a threat, she's kinda just telling her whats up, not threatening something will happen if something else happens. -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 28 alicehanners likes this
Just 'cause it's flowery doesn't make this a good threat.
-alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin and jedjackoway like this
If I was strapped to a board, and Cersei introduced her giant of a bodyguard to me as my "new god", I'd feel pretty threatened. -marcelcdn

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2016 Jun 28 nyan, bookworm13457, wynnch, kayeexau like this
I feel threatened by a lot of things all the time. Doesn't mean they threatened me. -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 29

21:49 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

as she locks Septa Unella in with Gregor Clegane: "Shame. Shame. Shame." (Witty Insult)

23:47 (+3) Bronn:

to Jaime, after a Frey serving girl gives him the eye: "You don't even have to do anything, do you?" (Funny Line)

24:07 (+3) Bronn:

Jaime Lannister: "Those two have their eyes on you."
Bronn: "They have their eyes on *you*, cunt."
Jaime: "Not my type."
Bronn: "Not blonde enough?" (Witty Insult)

Glasses of Wine Consumed

17:51 (+5) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei drinks as she watches the wildfire explosion engulf the Sept of Baelor from the safety of her chambers in the Red Keep. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

23:54 (+5) Bronn:

Bronn drinks at the Frey-Lannister feast celebrating the retaking of Riverrun. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Deaths

+1 for Benjen Stark, +1 for Leaf, +1 for Doran Martell, +1 for Trystane Martell, +1 for Smalljon Umber, +1 for The Waif

Special

10:26 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei pours herself a glass of wine while observing the events at the Sept of Baelor from afar. (Special)

18:15 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei pours out her glass of wine over Septa Unella's face as she is bound to a table. "Confess." (Special)

18:32 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

After emptying her glass, Cersei returns to pour out an entire pitcher of wine over Septa Unella's face as she tortures her. (Special)

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