Matchup: Velaryon Hodor vs Win Or Die for Ep 10

Velaryon Hodor (autouser)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Deaths
Tommen Baratheon The King of the Seven Kingdoms after the assassination of his brother, Joffrey Baratheon. He is young and highly impressionable to the various influences in King's Landing that seek to control him.	#24	20	10	0	0	10
Sansa Stark The second eldest of the Stark children. Sansa has spent many of her past years as prisoner to the Lannisters and more recently, House Bolton, the new Warden of the North. Currently she is married to Ramsay, the heir of House Bolton, who keeps her imprisoned in Winterfell and tortures her sadistically. During the Bolton battle against Stannis Baratheon's forces, Sansa escapes over the Winterfell walls with the help of Theon Greyjoy, and the two make their way as far from the Boltons as possible. She is a huge fan of lemon cakes.	#8	6	0	3	3	0
Samwell Tarly A steward of the Night's Watch. He is a close friend to Jon Snow, and one of the few people known to have killed a White Walker. He journeys south to begin his training as a Maester to replace the aging Maester Aemon.	#16	3	0	0	3	0
Tyrion Lannister The third, stunted dwarf of the Lannister children - a fugitive from Westeros after losing his trial for the murder of King Joffrey, he has escaped and found service as an advisor to Daenerys Targaryen.	#1	3	0	3	0	0
Tormund Giantsbane A leader of the Wildlings, and formerly a trusted lieutenant and second-in-command to Mance Rayder, the King Beyond the Wall. Although they have met in battle more than once, he bears a grudging respect for Jon Snow.	#25	0	0	0	0	0
Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger) Formerly the Master of Coin, Littlefinger is a conniving political mastermind and serves as Warden of the East after his behind-the-scenes assassination of Lisa Tully.	#9	0	0	0	0	0
Theon Greyjoy Heir to the Iron Islands, and formerly a ward of House Stark. Theon has been broken through torture by the hands of Ramsay Bolton, but has escaped Winterfell along with Sansa Stark during the chaos of the Battle of Winterfell.	#17	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		32	10	6	6	10

Win Or Die (will)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Deaths	Special
Cersei Lannister Queen Regent of the Seven Kingdoms and mother to King Tommen. Afflicted by a rare water allergy.	#2	627	598	9	6	5	0	9
Jon Snow The bastard son of Ned Stark, and the current Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. After guiding the Wildlings to safety in the aftermath of the Battle of Castle Black and the attack on Hardhome, he was betrayed by a mutiny of the Night's Watch, and left for dead in the snow.	#7	30	0	21	3	0	0	6
Daario Naharis Leader of the Second Sons, a sellsword company who now serves Daenerys Targaryen. He is also one of Daneerys' trusted advisors and her lover.	#18	8	0	3	0	5	0	0
Varys Formerly the Master of Whisperers in King's Landing, Varys controls a vast network of spies. After smuggling Tyrion Lannister to Essos, he reveals himself as a supporter of Daenerys Targaryen's claim to the Iron Throne. In Daenerys' absence, he serves with Tyrion Lannister and presides over the rule of Meereen.	#10	3	0	3	0	0	0	0
Balon Greyjoy The head of House Greyjoy and Lord of the Iron Islands. He is the father of Theon, who was given up as a ward to the Starks after Balon's failed rebellion against the Iron Throne.	#26	1	0	0	0	0	1	0
Davos Seaworth Ser Davos is a knight serving Stannis Baratheon, and one of his most trusted advisors. He is often at odds with the Red Priestess Melisandre.	#23	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Euron Greyjoy An uncle to Theon Greyjoy, Euron is an infamous pirate who has terrorized seas all around the world. He is described as cunning, ruthless, and with a touch of madness.	#15	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		669	598	36	9	10	1	15

Kills

17:14 (+60) Cersei Lannister:

A candle burns down to ignite the cache of wildfire buried beneath the Sept of Baelor, creating a massive detonation that obliterates the Sept and the audience awaiting Cersei's Trial by Seven. The High Sparrow, Lancel Lannister, Kevan Lannister, Mace Tyrell, Loras Tyrell, and Margaery Tyrell perish as the wildfire explosion erupts through the floor of the Sept. (Kill of Named Character)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

115 more comments - see full thread

Part 2: So here's what we'll do.

Camp A will be a "default", as I think it's the general impression most viewers had on watching the scene, if they didn't dive into the nitty-gritty of scoring criteria. All of the leagues currently on Ruleset 3.1 and 4.0, Cersei will keep all the kill points.

For Camp B, all of the "reasonable split" scores will be added (Lem, Ramsay, Jordaario), under new Rulesets called 3.1b and 4.0b. These are the same as the existing Rulesets, just with these kill points added. Consider this a branch of the rules, enabling Leagues to self-determine which interpretation of the scoring criteria they want to apply.

I'll also be developing a new Ruleset 5.0 for the rewatches and S7 - it'll include the removal of commanded kills and the addition of some new political scoring categories to address some of the events that have felt like they weren't properly credited this season. The exact details need to be fine-tuned (the rewatches will be good practice), but ultimately it should address each of this season's controversial scores in a way that's unambiguous and properly rewarding for the magnitude of the characters' actions on the show.

At the end of this discussion, I personally fell into Camp C ("nothing counts"). However my read on that is that most players, in their gut, wanted the scoring to be Camp A or Camp B, but ended up supporting the strictness of Camp C because the other options create some hard-to-reconcile precedents. As a scorekeeper, there's some wariness that both Ruleset 4.0 and 4.0b will now be slightly broken in a "crap, this is going to be a mess for some future S7 events that I can imagine happening" sense.

The 5.0 revision of the rules should be the answer to that concern - we won't have to worry about these controversial 4.0/4.0b scores establishing bad precedents for future scoring, because we'll be using a completely new Ruleset 5.0 by then. In that sense, both of these bends for Camp A and Camp B might be considered do-right scores for the popular player sentiment on who deserves points, in a way that's safely not precedent-setting for the future Ruleset 5.0.

@jedjackoway and @bookworm13457 were the two main commenters that seemed to subscribe to Camp C without a personal leaning towards A or B. Hopefully your concerns were precedent-based like mine, and using A or B will be acceptable for your S6 scores (if not, I can always add in 3.1c/4.0c rulesets as well).

So in summary, this gives all leagues a Ruleset choice that fits with their preferred scoring style, and gives us a path forward to avoid this controversy in the future.

Hopefully this is a happy resolution for everyone playing this season. I'm off to count up some villagers and arrowed corpses. -nyan

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2016 Jul 1 bookworm13457, twalters, righteous like this
Thanks for all of your hard work @Nyan. I do not envy your task of counting the soldiers kill in the Battle of the Bastards. Looking forward to 1-2 more seasons of this! -bookworm13457

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2016 Jul 1 nyan, righteous, twalters, jedjackoway, 2 others like this
The above changes are now live! Check your league settings for the Ruleset 3.1b scoring option. (ended up skipping on 4.0b as it turns out hardly any leagues are on it - of the active commenters, only @Lem Lemoncake used it).

If you happen to be in a Public League and would like switch it do a different ruleset, just let me know directly on FB/email - I'll switch these with preference going to the desired Ruleset of players who have been active in the scoring discussions.

For those curious, here's are those 3.1b events (screenshots of the villagers count and every. freaking. arrow. death.):

Ramsay volleys (36 soldiers and horseys): http://fantasora.com/event/2927
Lem Lemoncloak's kill commands (32 villagers): http://fantasora.com/event/3056
Gatins 1/7th share of 32 villager kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3062
Qyburn 50% wildfire kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3067
Cersei 50% wildfire kills: http://fantasora.com/event/3066 -nyan

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2016 Jul 1 rajatnigam, bookworm13457, righteous, twalters like this

17:15 (+452) Cersei Lannister:

A candle burns down to ignite the cache of wildfire buried beneath the Sept of Baelor, creating a massive detonation that obliterates the Sept and the audience awaiting Cersei's Trial by Seven. Along with the High Sparrow, Small Council, and the Tyrell royal family, 226 other members of the audience perish as the wildfire explosion erupts through the floor of the Sept. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

I finally counted them all. Here's the wide shot! https://imgur.com/ft412aT -nyan

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2016 Jun 28
I'm keeping my arguments in the other thread for simplicity's sake. But why is this not going to Qyburn as well? -alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28
There's no confirmation that Qyburn did this however we do know that Cersei did. -klov3r

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2016 Jun 28
Just saw the "inside episodes 9&10" on HBO and they stated they used 287 extras for the scene. -alexander.hilton91

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2016 Jun 29 nyan and bookworm13457 like this
Stephanie on the FB page brought this up as well - I think we'll keep the criteria as just the on-screen body count, as it's easily scorable and we won't always have this kind of behind-the-scenes info available. -nyan

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2016 Jun 29

17:30 (+4) Cersei Lannister:

Two King's Landing pedestrians are consumed in the Sept of Baelor wildfire explosion. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

17:31 (+76) Cersei Lannister:

38 pedestrians in the square outside the Sept of Baelor are overrun as the explosion of wildfire spills outward onto the streets of King's Landing. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

17:36 (+6) Cersei Lannister:

A King's Landing pedestrian is crushed by a bell jettisoned from the explosion at the Sept of Baelor. Two other pedestrians are also destroyed as the alley becomes engulfed in wildfire. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

22:19 (+10) Tommen Baratheon:

After witnessing the wildfire explosion at the Sept of Baelor, Tommen removes his crown and leaps from the balcony to his death. (Kill of Named Character)

Political Wins

0:00 (+3) Sansa Stark:

Littlefinger pledges his support of House Stark to Sansa Stark. "News of this battle will spread quickly through the Seven Kingdoms. I've declared for House Stark for all to hear." (New Follower/Prisoner)

submitted by xdwxrd (approved!)

17:18 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei destroys the Sept of Baelor in an explosion of wildfire, killing most of the Tyrell royal family and the King's Small Council. (Act of Betrayal)

Eh, really? She all but declared herself accountable to no one when talking to Grandma Tyrell.
-alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28
One of the conditions of her release from imprisonment was that she would stand trial later. Though she swore that she would she decided to skip her court date to watch some fireworks. -jimwangerin

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2016 Jun 28
It seemed like Cersei and the Small Council had reached a sort of detente when we last left off, after they agreed on Jaime's plan to march the Tyrell army in. Maybe they didn't trust her 100%, but certainly none of them expected she would outright murder them. -nyan

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin likes this

18:22 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei takes Septa Unella prisoner, tying her down to a table as she tortures her. "Confess. It felt good. Beating me, starving me, frightening me, humiliating me. You didn't do it because you cared about my atonement. You did it because it felt good. ... I killed your High Sparrow, and all his little sparrows ... because it felt good to watch them burn. It felt good to imagine their shock and their pain. No thought has ever given me greater joy." (New Follower/Prisoner)

35:33 (+3) Jon Snow:

After Davos reveals that Melisandre had burned Princess Shireen at the stake and asks permission to execute her, Jon Snow elects the middle route and excommunicates her from the North. "Ride south today. If you return to the North, I'll have you hanged as a murderer." (Executive Decision)

43:11 (+3) Daario Naharis :

Daario reluctantly accepts his assignment to be left behind in Essos as ruler of Meereen.
Daario: "You'll get that throne you want so badly, I'm sure of it. I hope it brings you happiness. I pity the lords of Westeros. They have no idea what's coming for them." (New Title)

47:04 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

"I had something made for you. I'm not sure if it's right... Tyrion Lannister, I name you Hand of the Queen." (New Title)

59:43 (+9) Jon Snow:

The Northern Lords Madnerly, Glover, Cerwyn declare their allegiance for Jon Snow as the King in the North.

Lord Wyman Manderly: "Lady Mormont speaks harshly, and truly ... I didn't think we'd find another king in my lifetime. I didn't commit my men to your cause, 'cause I didn't want more Manderly's dying for nothing. But I was wrong. Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding. He is the White Wolf. The King in the North."

Lord Robett Glover: "I did not fight beside you on the field and I will regret that until my dying day. A man can only admit when he was wrong and ask forgiveness ... There will be more fights to come. House Glover will stand behind House Stark as we have for a thousand years. And I will stand behind Jon Snow. The King in the North!" (New Follower/Prisoner)

61:13 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon gains the allegiance of Lord Yohn Royce of the Vale, as he and the Northern lords declare Jon as King in the North. (New Follower/Prisoner)

submitted by nyan (approved!)

Lord Royce is in the hall and can be seen drawing his sword along with the others. He doesn't have his own speech moment like the other Northern lords, and it's odd to imagine he would just drop his allegiance to Robin Arryn like that, which makes the score somewhat debatable. -nyan

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2016 Jun 28
Dunno how it works, but LF did mention the vale is now sworn to Stark? -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 28
Yeah, Baelish does say "I've declared for House Stark, for all to hear." So, I think Jon should definitely get points for his new followers from the Vale -cfitzgerald

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2016 Jun 28

61:17 (+3) Jon Snow:

Davos Seaworth rises with the other Northern lords in declaring their allegiance to Jon Snow as the King in the North. (New Follower/Prisoner)

61:25 (+3) Jon Snow:

After Lyanna Mormont's rousing speech, the Northern lords declare for Jon Snow as the new King in the North.

Lyanna Mormont: "But House Mormont remembers. The North remembers. We know no king but the King in the North whose name is Stark. I don't care if he's a bastard. Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins. He's my king from this day until his last day." (New Title)

63:11 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Qyburn: "I now proclaim Cersei of the House Lannister, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms. Long may she reign." (New Title)

66:01 (+3) Varys:

Varys returns from his diplomatic mission to Dorne, apparently successful at recruiting House Tyrell and the Sand Snakes to support Daenerys and lend her use of their navies. (Convincing Argument)

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

21:10 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

to Septa Unella: "This is Ser Gregor Clegane. He's quiet, too. Your Gods have forsaken you. This is your god now."
(Threat)

Is this really a threat, she's kinda just telling her whats up, not threatening something will happen if something else happens. -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 28 alicehanners likes this
Just 'cause it's flowery doesn't make this a good threat.
-alicehanners

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin and jedjackoway like this
If I was strapped to a board, and Cersei introduced her giant of a bodyguard to me as my "new god", I'd feel pretty threatened. -marcelcdn

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2016 Jun 28 nyan, bookworm13457, wynnch, kayeexau like this
I feel threatened by a lot of things all the time. Doesn't mean they threatened me. -xdwxrd

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2016 Jun 29

21:49 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

as she locks Septa Unella in with Gregor Clegane: "Shame. Shame. Shame." (Witty Insult)

29:43 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Citadel receptionist: "This is irregular."
Samwell: "Yes, well... I suppose that... life is irregular." (Funny Line)

38:05 (+3) Jon Snow:

Sansa: "A raven came from the Citadel. A white raven. Winter is here."
Jon: "Well, father always promised." (Funny Line)

submitted by cfitzgerald (approved!)

Under which category would this fall though? -Laxis

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2016 Jun 28
A funny line. They both kind of chuckle at it and I know I smiled, so I think it should count -cfitzgerald

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2016 Jun 28
Definitely funny line. In the comedy world this is what's called a "callback" where you reference an earlier joke, in this case the earlier joke was "Winter is Coming." -mg.flanigan11

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2016 Jun 28 alexanderdropkin and nyan like this

51:28 (+3) Sansa Stark:

Petyr Baelish: "Every time I'm faced with a decision, I close my eyes and see the same picture. Whenever I consider an action, I ask myself will this action help to make this picture a reality? ... A picture of me on the Iron Throne... and you by my side."
Sansa: "It's a pretty picture." (Witty Insult)

Glasses of Wine Consumed

17:51 (+5) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei drinks as she watches the wildfire explosion engulf the Sept of Baelor from the safety of her chambers in the Red Keep. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

43:32 (+5) Daario Naharis :

Daario takes a drink after accepting his assignment to stay behind in Meereen. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Deaths

22:19 (+10) Tommen Baratheon:

After witnessing the wildfire explosion at the Sept of Baelor, Tommen removes his crown and leaps from the balcony to his death. (Death)

26:42 (+0) Tommen Baratheon:

Tommen's shrouded body is presented to Cersei. "He should be with his grandfather, his brother, his sister. Burn him and bury his ashes where the Sept once stood." (Dead Body Appearance)

+1 for Balon Greyjoy

Special

10:26 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei pours herself a glass of wine while observing the events at the Sept of Baelor from afar. (Special)

18:15 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

Cersei pours out her glass of wine over Septa Unella's face as she is bound to a table. "Confess." (Special)

18:32 (+3) Cersei Lannister:

After emptying her glass, Cersei returns to pour out an entire pitcher of wine over Septa Unella's face as she tortures her. (Special)

52:02 (+3) Jon Snow:

Petyr Baelish: "Who should the North rally behind? A trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark born here at Winterfell? Or a motherless bastard born in the south?" (Special)

59:17 (+3) Jon Snow:

Lyanna Mormont: "I don't care if he's a bastard. Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins." (Special)

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