Matchup: I drink and I know things vs The Lethal Lions for Ep 2

I drink and I know things (meghan.menard)

Character	Drafted	Total	Politics	Insults	Wine	Special
Ellaria Sand The former paramour of Prince Oberyn. She is also the mother of several of his bastard children, known as the Sand Snakes, and plots revenge against the Lannisters for Oberyn's death. After assassinating Prince Doran and overtaking Dorne, she joins forces with Daenerys Targaryen as she sails west to retake the Iron Throne.	#23	11	0	3	5	3
Daenerys Targaryen Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Mother of Dragons and Breaker of Chains. With her three dragons and army of Unsullied soldiers she carved out an empire of liberated slave cities in the east, and she now sets her sights westward as she sails for the Seven Kingdoms to reclaim the Iron Throne.	#2	6	3	3	0	0
Lyanna Mormont The spunky young head of House Mormont.	#35	0	0	0	0	0
Meera Reed The eldest child of Howland Reed, bannerman to the Starks. She assists Bran in his journeys north of the Wall and is the only other surviving member of his party.	#26	0	0	0	0	0
Robin Arryn The young, sickly son of the late Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully. He is Lord of the Vale, although he is easily manipualted by Lord Petyr Baelish, who serves as Lord Protector until he comes of age.	#38	0	0	0	0	0
Sandor Clegane (The Hound) A fearsome Lannister knight, formerly known as the Hound. After being left for dead after losing a fight with Brienne of Tarth, he recovered and briefly reformed as a laborer in a nonviolent commune, but has joined with Beric Dondarrion and the Brotherhood without Banners after bandits attack and destroy the village.	#14	0	0	0	0	0
Tormund Giantsbane Formerly a lieutenant of Mance Rayder, the King beyond the Wall, Tormund is now the de facto leader of the Wildlings and a reasoned voice in rallying them behind the cause of Jon Snow.	#11	0	0	0	0	0
Edmure Tully Catelyn Stark's brother, and the heir to House Tully and Riverrun. He is held as a prisoner of Lord Walder Frey after the betrayal at the Red Wedding.	#47	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		17	3	6	5	3

The Lethal Lions (jffahey)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Deaths	Special
Samwell Tarly A steward of the Night's Watch, Samwell has been sent south to Oldtown to begin his training as a Maester. He is a close friend to Jon Snow, and one of the few people known to have killed a White Walker.	#20	22	5	6	0	5	0	6
Theon Greyjoy Heir to the Iron Islands, and formerly a ward of House Stark. Theon is slowly recovering from physical and mental breakdown during his time as a prisoner of Ramsay Bolton. He currently accompanies his sister Yara Greyjoy, who has pledged her Ironborn forces to the cause of Daenerys Targaryen.	#29	18	10	0	0	5	0	3
Nymeria Sand One of Oberyn Martell's bastards, known as Sand Snakes. She's into whips.	#44	13	3	0	3	0	7	0
Jorah Mormont The exiled head of House Mormont. Jorah was previously one of Daenerys Targaryen's most trusted advisors before his banishment and subsequent infection with the fatal greyscale disease. As Daenerys leaves for Westeros, he wanders Essos in search of a cure.	#17	5	0	0	0	5	0	0
Jaime Lannister The second of the Lannister children, he is Cersei's lover and twin brother, and also the father of her three (now deceased) bastard children, the supposed sons and daughters of the late King Robert Baratheon. He also serves as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.	#5	3	0	0	3	0	0	0
Ed Sheeran	#41	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Beric Dondarrion Lord of Blackhaven, bannermen to House Baratheon. He leads the Brotherhood Without Banners, an outlaw fighting group in the Riverlands.	#32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger) Lord Protector of the Vale, Littlefinger effectively controls the Knights of the Vale through the easily manipulated Robbin Arryn. He is a master manipulator who will stop at nothing for power.	#8	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		61	18	6	6	15	7	9

Kills

33:54 (+5) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell plies off the infected Greyscale tissue from Jorah's chest, with all the gentleness of a spoon digging through hot pie. (Major Injury of Named Character)

28 more comments - see full thread

You referenced Tyrion's scar which is tiny compared to that of a burn victim. So even if we made the criteria: Tyrion's scar or larger, I think we would still see quite a few injuries that might have otherwise been considered minor now being considered major.

Also real life burn victims don't have access to the medical ointments that Samwell is applying to Jorah, for all we know Jorah could come out of this looking like nothing happened. And I can assure you if that's the case I will definitely be arguing for these points to be removed retroactively. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25
Is anyone else having trouble with trades mine won't allow accept ion, rejection, or counter
-talindsey

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2017 Jul 28
@ssantise admittedly they've minimized Tyrion's scar in subsequent seasons. If you recall back to S2 they made a big thing about having bandaged up his entire face and was worried that Shae wouldn't love him anymore. I do think that if Tyrion recovers from the battle, has a cosmetic scar but they don't really make a big thing about it, it wouldn't be a major injury. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

51:13 (+4) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon cuts down two of Euron's soldiers as they board Yara's ship. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

52:01 (+4) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon kills two more soldiers. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

53:09 (+2) Nymeria Sand:

Nymeria stabs an Ironborn, only to turn around to see her sister Obara being killed. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

53:18 (+1) Nymeria Sand:

In a fury after witnessing her sister Obara's death, Nymeria whip-grabbles Euron Greyjoy, spinning closer to slice him across the leg with her dagger. (Minor Injury of Named Character)

54:43 (+2) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon cuts down one last Ironborn, before his uncle Euron calls to him. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

Political Wins

21:06 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys overrules the direct assault advocated by the Greyjoys, Tyrells, and Dornish, opting for a less violent siege on King's Landing and attack on Casterly Rock. (Executive Decision)

I will admit that I did not play in the league last year but just like the rule about brokering a deal that you must be a third party this seems to fall under the same logic.
According to the rulebook: Overruling: An "executive" decision is made unilaterally over the protest of at least 1 third party involved in the discussion
Overruling doesn't apply to a second party who is the target of the discussion.

Daenerys is the second party and the target of the discussion. The Greyjoys, Tyrells, and Dornish are trying to convince her and her army to do something not a third party. Danerys is speaking on her own behalf not for someone else. I feel that is directly falls under the exception stated in the rulebook
-ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
The 2nd party is meant as the target of the decision. So for Joffrey executing Ned, Ned is the 2nd party, so obviously his disagreement will be overridden, but if any small council members protested they would be counted as opposition. -nyan

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2017 Jul 24
Yes and i believe Daenerys and her army are the target of the decision. My argument was constructed around the logic behind the reasoning for brokering a deal role. Which was designed so characters like vayrs and little finger can get points but not characters like Jon Snow and Daenerys since they will allready be getting points when the actual event occurs e.g. (when Daenerys actually follows through with the attack on Casterly Rock and King's Landing) -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
she will get her points then

forgot to add this to my last comment -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
Hmmm @ssantise you make a fair point. I suppose a rules rewording may be in order, to better get behind the spirit of the idea: if Joffrey orders Ned to be executed, and everybody is onboard with it except for Ned who obviously is not, it's not a very politically tough decision - there is nobody Joffrey had to convince or overrule to carry it out. Here Daenerys has credible resistance to her decision, and she either has to convince or intimidate her allies into obeying. I suppose in the Joffrey case, the thing about Ned's opposition that doesn't matter is not that he's the 2nd party, but that as a prisoner he doesn't have any political power that would matter in the decision. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

30:55 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell sneaks into Jorah's room to try an experimental Greyscale treatment on him, despite Archmaester Ebrose's forbidding him to do so. (Executive Decision)

12 more comments - see full thread

a key component of an executive decision is that the decision is made to someone who you have power over. it cant be 'Executive' without that power dynamic. -hindsight44

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2017 Jul 24 nyan likes this
'Naughty' points? -xdwxrd

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2017 Jul 25
@ssantise I would not necessarily hold that followers and decisions are intertwined. Samwell is not directly a follower of the Archmaester, however the Archmaester is still making Citadel-wide rules for all Maesters (and Maesters-in-training), which Samwell must obey as part of the order. Just like a student is not necesarily a follower of a principal, but the principal can still make school-wide decisions that affect all the students. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

38:07 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell's letter is the final straw that convinces Jon Snow to ally with Daenerys Targaryen.

"This message was sent to me by Samwell Tarly. He was my brother at the Night's Watch. A man I trust as much as anyone in this world. He's discovered proof that Dragonstone sits on a mountain of dragonglass." (Convincing Argument)

14 more comments - see full thread

I don't like the idea of tweaking the rulebook constantly so that everyone can get as many points of possible. I think its important to have a concrete set of rules that we can all rely on. I agree that there must be room for changes as the show evolves but I feel there should be a bit more formality around making substantial changes to the rulebook. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25
@hindsight44 one definition of the word argument is a two-way debate that involves dialogue. but a "convincing argument" is just a one-way statement. if people exchange convincing arguments, that entire dialogue can be considered an argument. if an attorney presents an argument at a case, they are the only ones speaking, until the other side present their argument(s). if someone writes a critical essay (or like in this case, a letter), they are making a single argument to persuade the reader of something. these are all one-way arguments -hkeseyan

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2017 Jul 25
@ssantise and @hkeseyan, basically you are both on the sides that I'm trying to balance when refining the scorekeeping. As @ssantise says, for consistency and fairness, the rules shouldn't change drastically. And definitely not for reasons like "we want there to be as many scores as possible". But as @hkeseyan and I'm sure lots of people realized, there are lots of areas to improve on the scoring rules, and that's especially true since the original rules were just what I could think of on my own when I started the game - each year lots of players are bringing in new ideas and are continually making the game better, and we still haven't quite reached the point where everything if fully stabilized.

For this convincing argument case, I think @hkeseyan gets at a better spirit of the rules for scoring, which isn't strictly about the decision by a character being reversed, but simply a character effectively convincing another to go with their plan of action (but with some real effort needed to convince, not simply "Hey man you wanna kill some Lannisters? Sure let's do it.").

In hindsight it was a mistake on my part to word it concretely around a decision being already made - I had been thinking too narrowly about examples like Robert and his Small Council, and it doesn't cover things like a brooding, indecisive Jon even though that was the intention.

So given that, I'll change that rulebook line to the following:

A character can be "convinced" only after they had initially decided in the opposite decision, or shown some resistance or indecision to the arguments.

Definitely it's not taken lightly and I understand each of these changes affects the scoring expectations negatively. For the most part I hope all of these tweaks are getting closer in line with the spirit of what deserves scoring. And I believe, is not inconsistent with what we've scored before (if anyone is finding examples of rejected scores because a character was simply indecisive vs. fully decided in the opposite direction, let me know. But otherwise I think this is the first time it's come up.) -nyan

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2017 Jul 31 ssantise likes this

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

0:00 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

on Melisandre's arrival to Dragonstone, after Varys protests that she had served Stannis Baratheon: "You chose an auspicious day to arrive at Dragonstone. We've just decided to pardon those who once served the wrong King." (Witty Insult)

submitted by kimberly.ramia (approved!)

I didn't think this line was particularly humorous. I will say that it was well said or creative but according to the rulebook only insults and threats get points for this. Since this quote was neither, it should only get points for being funny, which it is not. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
I'll grant it, I didn't think it was humorous, but it is partway to an insult as a way of shutting down Varys' objections and reminding him of his sorta-hypocrisy. -nyan

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2017 Jul 25
This is true, i didnt take into account that Varys was in the room when she said this and even though she was speaking to Melisandre, the jab was directed a Varys. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25

13:42 (+3) Jaime Lannister:

Randyll Tarly: "Ser Jaime, I believe you know my son."
Jaime: "Rickon, isn't it?"
Dickon: "Dickon."
Jaime: "That's it." (walks past Dickon to speak with Randyll) (Funny Line)

48:28 (+3) Nymeria Sand:

Tyene Sand: "Maybe I'll kill you both before we take King's Landing. And then I won't have to share."
Obara and Nymeria: "(baby voice) Mammmaaa!" (Funny Line)

49:42 (+3) Ellaria Sand:

to Theon, as she gets between Yara's legs: "Why are you standing all the way over there then? The foreign invasion is underway." (Funny Line)

Glasses of Wine Consumed

31:39 (+5) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell takes a hearty swig of the rum he gives to Jorah, before attempting the Greyscale surgery. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

31:45 (+5) Jorah Mormont:

Jorah drinks the rum given to him by Samwell, as he braces himself to undergo the experimental Greyscale procedure. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

48:30 (+5) Ellaria Sand:

Ellaria tries out the beverages stocked by the Greyjoy fleet. "How can you drink this piss? When we reach Sunspear I'll treat you to a Dornish Red, the best in the world." (Glass of Wine Consumed)

after this doesn't she also request for Theon to pour her more? doesn't that count as another wine point? -ssleppy

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2017 Jul 24
Just Kidding! I was linking that thought to the special for Cercei requesting a glass be poured. Disregard!! -ssleppy

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2017 Jul 24
Anyone getting a refill counts as a new glass (if they consume any after the top-off), AFAIK. -dopeghoti

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2017 Jul 24
Ellaria gets distracted after getting her refill and never even drinks it. Another L for Theon. -nyan

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2017 Jul 24

48:33 (+5) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon drinks with Yara and Ellaria Sand below deck as they sail for Sunspear. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Deaths

53:30 (+5) Nymeria Sand:

Nymeria is bested by Euron Greyjoy, who blocks her dagger and strangles her with her own whip. (Death)

56:02 (+2) Nymeria Sand:

In the aftermath of Euron's ambush on Yara's fleet, Nymeria's body hangs from the bowsprit of the burning ship, with her own whip as a noose. (Dead Body Appearance)

Special

20:18 (+3) Ellaria Sand:

to Tyrion: "My greatest regret is that Oberyn died fighting for you." (Special)

29:52 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell mentions that he has potentially found a treatment option for Jorah Mormont's greyscale in a book. "I found the procedure in a study of rare diseases by Archmaester Pylos". (Special)

31:52 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell opens up Archmaester Pylos' tome on Rare Diseases, which contains the instructions for the Greyscale treatment he is to perform on Jorah. (Special)

55:00 (+3) Theon Greyjoy:

Euron taunts Theon into fleeing the battle as he holds Yara captive: "Ah come on, you cockless coward. I have her. Come and get her." (Special)

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