Matchup: Pod's Pleasure Pad vs Will Tabrett for Ep 2

Lannisport Council (Public #920)

Pod's Pleasure Pad (rogersmatt2526)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Special
Samwell Tarly A steward of the Night's Watch, Samwell has been sent south to Oldtown to begin his training as a Maester. He is a close friend to Jon Snow, and one of the few people known to have killed a White Walker.	#17	22	5	6	0	5	6
Daenerys Targaryen Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Mother of Dragons and Breaker of Chains. With her three dragons and army of Unsullied soldiers she carved out an empire of liberated slave cities in the east, and she now sets her sights westward as she sails for the Seven Kingdoms to reclaim the Iron Throne.	#1	6	0	3	3	0	0
Qhono A Dothraki bloodrider, he swears allegiance to Daenerys after she burns all of the other Khals alive in Dosh Khaleen.	#64	0	0	0	0	0	0
Denys Mallister A member of the Night's Watch and commander of the Shadow Tower, located the west end of the Wall. He was a candidate to be elected for Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, though Jon Snow ultimately won the election.	#48	0	0	0	0	0	0
Tormund Giantsbane Formerly a lieutenant of Mance Rayder, the King beyond the Wall, Tormund is now the de facto leader of the Wildlings and a reasoned voice in rallying them behind the cause of Jon Snow.	#16	0	0	0	0	0	0
Septa Unella A Septa who took exceptional pleasure in torturing Cersei Lannister while she was a prisoner of the Sparrows, ringing the shame! shame! shame! bell as she made her walk of atonement. She is now held as a prisoner of Cersei.	#49	0	0	0	0	0	0
Beric Dondarrion Lord of Blackhaven, bannermen to House Baratheon. He leads the Brotherhood Without Banners, an outlaw fighting group in the Riverlands.	#33	0	0	0	0	0	0
Meera Reed The eldest child of Howland Reed, bannerman to the Starks. She assists Bran in his journeys north of the Wall and is the only other surviving member of his party.	#32	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		28	5	9	3	5	6

Will Tabrett (willtabrett)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Deaths	Special
Obara Sand The eldest of Prince Oberyn Martell's bastard children, known as the Sand Snakes. She wields a spear.	#35	18	0	0	3	5	7	3
Jon Snow Recently declared King in the North, he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, and formerly served as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch before he was betrayed by his fellow men.	#3	7	1	3	0	0	0	3
Davos Seaworth Formerly Hand of the King to Stannis Baratheon, Davos now advises Jon Snow. He is often at odds with the Red Priestess Melisandre.	#19	6	0	3	3	0	0	0
Aeron Greyjoy An uncle of Theon Greyjoy, who serves as a priest to the Drowned God.	#51	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Gregor Clegane (The Mountain) A knight and the head of House Clegane, he serves as a member of the Kingsguard and Cersei's personal muscle. He is a massive and impossibly strong warrior, although he remains speechless and zombie-like ever since being wounded in a Trial by Combat against Oberyn Martell.	#14	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Daario Naharis Leader of the Second Sons, a sellsword company who now serves Daenerys Targaryen. He is also one of Daneerys' trusted advisors and her lover, but has been left behind in Meereen to govern the city.	#30	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Edmure Tully Catelyn Stark's brother, and the heir to House Tully and Riverrun. He is held as a prisoner of Lord Walder Frey after the betrayal at the Red Wedding.	#46	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
High Priestess of the Dosh Khaleen A priestess who leads the Dosh Khaleen, the widows of slain khals who preside over the holy city of Vaes Dothrak.	#62	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		31	1	6	6	5	7	6

Kills

33:54 (+5) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell plies off the infected Greyscale tissue from Jorah's chest, with all the gentleness of a spoon digging through hot pie. (Major Injury of Named Character)

28 more comments - see full thread

You referenced Tyrion's scar which is tiny compared to that of a burn victim. So even if we made the criteria: Tyrion's scar or larger, I think we would still see quite a few injuries that might have otherwise been considered minor now being considered major.

Also real life burn victims don't have access to the medical ointments that Samwell is applying to Jorah, for all we know Jorah could come out of this looking like nothing happened. And I can assure you if that's the case I will definitely be arguing for these points to be removed retroactively. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25
Is anyone else having trouble with trades mine won't allow accept ion, rejection, or counter
-talindsey

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2017 Jul 28
@ssantise admittedly they've minimized Tyrion's scar in subsequent seasons. If you recall back to S2 they made a big thing about having bandaged up his entire face and was worried that Shae wouldn't love him anymore. I do think that if Tyrion recovers from the battle, has a cosmetic scar but they don't really make a big thing about it, it wouldn't be a major injury. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

43:40 (+1) Jon Snow:

Jon chokes a creeping Littlefinger against a wall in the Crypts of Winterfell. "Talk to my sister, and I'll kill you myself." (Minor Injury of Named Character)

Political Wins

0:00 (+3) Davos Seaworth:

Davos suggests that Daenerys's dragons will be a powerful asset against the fight against the wights, and suggests allying with her, despite Sansa's protests. Ultimately, Jon decides to personally travel to Dragonstone to meet with Daenerys, citing Davos' arguments in his appeal to the Northern Lords.

"What breathes fire?" ... "But if the army of the dead makes it past the wall, do we have enough men to fight them?"

(Convincing Argument)

submitted by hkeseyan (approved!)

21:06 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys overrules the direct assault advocated by the Greyjoys, Tyrells, and Dornish, opting for a less violent siege on King's Landing and attack on Casterly Rock. (Executive Decision)

I will admit that I did not play in the league last year but just like the rule about brokering a deal that you must be a third party this seems to fall under the same logic.
According to the rulebook: Overruling: An "executive" decision is made unilaterally over the protest of at least 1 third party involved in the discussion
Overruling doesn't apply to a second party who is the target of the discussion.

Daenerys is the second party and the target of the discussion. The Greyjoys, Tyrells, and Dornish are trying to convince her and her army to do something not a third party. Danerys is speaking on her own behalf not for someone else. I feel that is directly falls under the exception stated in the rulebook
-ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
The 2nd party is meant as the target of the decision. So for Joffrey executing Ned, Ned is the 2nd party, so obviously his disagreement will be overridden, but if any small council members protested they would be counted as opposition. -nyan

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2017 Jul 24
Yes and i believe Daenerys and her army are the target of the decision. My argument was constructed around the logic behind the reasoning for brokering a deal role. Which was designed so characters like vayrs and little finger can get points but not characters like Jon Snow and Daenerys since they will allready be getting points when the actual event occurs e.g. (when Daenerys actually follows through with the attack on Casterly Rock and King's Landing) -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
she will get her points then

forgot to add this to my last comment -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
Hmmm @ssantise you make a fair point. I suppose a rules rewording may be in order, to better get behind the spirit of the idea: if Joffrey orders Ned to be executed, and everybody is onboard with it except for Ned who obviously is not, it's not a very politically tough decision - there is nobody Joffrey had to convince or overrule to carry it out. Here Daenerys has credible resistance to her decision, and she either has to convince or intimidate her allies into obeying. I suppose in the Joffrey case, the thing about Ned's opposition that doesn't matter is not that he's the 2nd party, but that as a prisoner he doesn't have any political power that would matter in the decision. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

30:55 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell sneaks into Jorah's room to try an experimental Greyscale treatment on him, despite Archmaester Ebrose's forbidding him to do so. (Executive Decision)

12 more comments - see full thread

a key component of an executive decision is that the decision is made to someone who you have power over. it cant be 'Executive' without that power dynamic. -hindsight44

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2017 Jul 24 nyan likes this
'Naughty' points? -xdwxrd

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2017 Jul 25
@ssantise I would not necessarily hold that followers and decisions are intertwined. Samwell is not directly a follower of the Archmaester, however the Archmaester is still making Citadel-wide rules for all Maesters (and Maesters-in-training), which Samwell must obey as part of the order. Just like a student is not necesarily a follower of a principal, but the principal can still make school-wide decisions that affect all the students. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

38:07 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell's letter is the final straw that convinces Jon Snow to ally with Daenerys Targaryen.

"This message was sent to me by Samwell Tarly. He was my brother at the Night's Watch. A man I trust as much as anyone in this world. He's discovered proof that Dragonstone sits on a mountain of dragonglass." (Convincing Argument)

14 more comments - see full thread

I don't like the idea of tweaking the rulebook constantly so that everyone can get as many points of possible. I think its important to have a concrete set of rules that we can all rely on. I agree that there must be room for changes as the show evolves but I feel there should be a bit more formality around making substantial changes to the rulebook. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25
@hindsight44 one definition of the word argument is a two-way debate that involves dialogue. but a "convincing argument" is just a one-way statement. if people exchange convincing arguments, that entire dialogue can be considered an argument. if an attorney presents an argument at a case, they are the only ones speaking, until the other side present their argument(s). if someone writes a critical essay (or like in this case, a letter), they are making a single argument to persuade the reader of something. these are all one-way arguments -hkeseyan

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2017 Jul 25
@ssantise and @hkeseyan, basically you are both on the sides that I'm trying to balance when refining the scorekeeping. As @ssantise says, for consistency and fairness, the rules shouldn't change drastically. And definitely not for reasons like "we want there to be as many scores as possible". But as @hkeseyan and I'm sure lots of people realized, there are lots of areas to improve on the scoring rules, and that's especially true since the original rules were just what I could think of on my own when I started the game - each year lots of players are bringing in new ideas and are continually making the game better, and we still haven't quite reached the point where everything if fully stabilized.

For this convincing argument case, I think @hkeseyan gets at a better spirit of the rules for scoring, which isn't strictly about the decision by a character being reversed, but simply a character effectively convincing another to go with their plan of action (but with some real effort needed to convince, not simply "Hey man you wanna kill some Lannisters? Sure let's do it.").

In hindsight it was a mistake on my part to word it concretely around a decision being already made - I had been thinking too narrowly about examples like Robert and his Small Council, and it doesn't cover things like a brooding, indecisive Jon even though that was the intention.

So given that, I'll change that rulebook line to the following:

A character can be "convinced" only after they had initially decided in the opposite decision, or shown some resistance or indecision to the arguments.

Definitely it's not taken lightly and I understand each of these changes affects the scoring expectations negatively. For the most part I hope all of these tweaks are getting closer in line with the spirit of what deserves scoring. And I believe, is not inconsistent with what we've scored before (if anyone is finding examples of rejected scores because a character was simply indecisive vs. fully decided in the opposite direction, let me know. But otherwise I think this is the first time it's come up.) -nyan

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2017 Jul 31 ssantise likes this

39:03 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow decides that he must go to Dragonstone to meet with Daenerys, despite objections from Sansa and nearly all the Northern lords. "Daenerys is a Queen. Only a King could convince her to help us. It has to be me." (Executive Decision)

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

0:00 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

on Melisandre's arrival to Dragonstone, after Varys protests that she had served Stannis Baratheon: "You chose an auspicious day to arrive at Dragonstone. We've just decided to pardon those who once served the wrong King." (Witty Insult)

submitted by kimberly.ramia (approved!)

I didn't think this line was particularly humorous. I will say that it was well said or creative but according to the rulebook only insults and threats get points for this. Since this quote was neither, it should only get points for being funny, which it is not. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
I'll grant it, I didn't think it was humorous, but it is partway to an insult as a way of shutting down Varys' objections and reminding him of his sorta-hypocrisy. -nyan

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2017 Jul 25
This is true, i didnt take into account that Varys was in the room when she said this and even though she was speaking to Melisandre, the jab was directed a Varys. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25

0:00 (+3) Davos Seaworth:

Davos' comments on the letter from Tyrion: "Sounds like a charmer. Casual mention of a Dothraki horde, a legion of Unsullied, and 3 dragons - a bit less charming." (Funny Line)

submitted by pacelli929 (approved!)

48:28 (+3) Obara Sand:

Tyene Sand: "Maybe I'll kill you both before we take King's Landing. And then I won't have to share."
Obara and Nymeria: "(baby voice) Mammmaaa!" (Funny Line)

Shouldn't Tyene Sand get points for this threat to Obara and Nymeria -kimberly.ramia

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2017 Jul 24
Tyene also killed a few people last night. -hindsight44

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2017 Jul 24
I think this "threat" was made in jest; hence funny line and not a threat -armizzle.diaz

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2017 Jul 24
Yeah, scored it as Tyene trying to make a playful jest... and then Obara/Nymeria having the better comeback to complete the dialogue. So the funny part is the "mamaaa" response, and by itself the Tyene line isn't much of a creative insult. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

Glasses of Wine Consumed

31:39 (+5) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell takes a hearty swig of the rum he gives to Jorah, before attempting the Greyscale surgery. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

48:08 (+5) Obara Sand:

Obara drinks in her hammock below deck, as the Sand Sisters argue over who they will kill in King's Landing. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Deaths

53:07 (+5) Obara Sand:

Obara is impaled with the shards of her own spear by Euron Greyjoy. (Death)

56:02 (+2) Obara Sand:

In the aftermath of Euron's ambush on Yara's fleet, Obara's body is shown impaled with her own spears onto the bowsprit of the burning ship. (Dead Body Appearance)

They show Obara and Nymeria's bodies twice.... They show them then cut to Theon then show the bodies again. -jessmell14

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2017 Jul 24 nathan likes this
The dead body appearances are counted each scene, but not for every individual clip, otherwise there's a lot of potential to rack up points for a scene with a lot of cuts. A scene is demarcated with a location or time skip. I'll update the rule text to clarify that. -nyan

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2017 Jul 24 kimbo likes this
Should Eiron get points for taunting for these? Then has seen them but maybe compounded in a later episode? -easson27

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2017 Jul 24

Special

10:48 (+3) Jon Snow:

Sansa reading Tyrion's letter to Jon Snow: "All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes." (Special)

Sure Tyrion alludes to Jon Snow being a bastard by calling himself a bastard, but he doesn't outright call Jon Snow a bastard. Does Jon get points every time he's called by his last name "Snow" which alludes to the fact that hes a bastard? -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
He gets points for the word bastard only. The words are on paper but Sansa says them out loud anyway. -nyan

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2017 Jul 24
fair enough -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24

29:52 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell mentions that he has potentially found a treatment option for Jorah Mormont's greyscale in a book. "I found the procedure in a study of rare diseases by Archmaester Pylos". (Special)

31:52 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell opens up Archmaester Pylos' tome on Rare Diseases, which contains the instructions for the Greyscale treatment he is to perform on Jorah. (Special)

48:11 (+3) Obara Sand:

to Nymeria: "The Mountain killed father. He'll crush you with one hand." (Special)

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