Matchup: Hodor! Hodor! vs Hound pound for Ep 2

GoTseason7

Hodor! Hodor! (katherinedreyer20)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Sex	Deaths	Special
Yara Greyjoy Theon's older sister, Yara was raised on the Iron Islands as a true Ironborn. She is a fearsome fighter and commands a longship of her own. After her uncle Euron Greyjoy seizes control of the Iron Islands, she flees with Theon and her loyal troops to ally with Daenerys Targaryen, whose dragons and armies sail west to retake Westeros.	#21	27	16	0	0	5	0	0	6
Theon Greyjoy Heir to the Iron Islands, and formerly a ward of House Stark. Theon is slowly recovering from physical and mental breakdown during his time as a prisoner of Ramsay Bolton. He currently accompanies his sister Yara Greyjoy, who has pledged her Ironborn forces to the cause of Daenerys Targaryen.	#28	18	10	0	0	5	0	0	3
Grey Worm The leader of the Unsullied - a highly-trained army of freed slaves who serve Daenerys Targaryen.	#9	15	0	0	0	0	15	0	0
Nymeria Sand One of Oberyn Martell's bastards, known as Sand Snakes. She's into whips.	#40	13	3	0	3	0	0	7	0
Jon Snow Recently declared King in the North, he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, and formerly served as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch before he was betrayed by his fellow men.	#4	7	1	3	0	0	0	0	3
Melisandre A Red Priestess from Asshai, Melisandre has demonstrated mythical skill in blood magic, most recently reviving a deceased Jon Snow. After Davos Seaworth exposes her live sacrifice of the child Shireen Baratheon, she has been exiled by Jon Snow.	#33	3	0	3	0	0	0	0	0
Tycho Nestoris A representative of the Iron Bank of Braavos, a powerful bank who holds a large sum of debt from the Iron Throne.	#45	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Podrick Payne A squire in the service of Brienne of Tarth. He previously served as Tyrion Lannister's squire.	#16	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		83	30	6	3	10	15	7	12

Hound pound (matthew.j.dreyer)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Special
Samwell Tarly A steward of the Night's Watch, Samwell has been sent south to Oldtown to begin his training as a Maester. He is a close friend to Jon Snow, and one of the few people known to have killed a White Walker.	#17	22	5	6	0	5	6
Arya Stark The youngest of the Stark girls. Recently having completed her training as an assassin in the House of Black and White, she has set sail to return to Westeros to pursue her revenge.	#8	11	0	3	3	5	0
Jorah Mormont The exiled head of House Mormont. Jorah was previously one of Daenerys Targaryen's most trusted advisors before his banishment and subsequent infection with the fatal greyscale disease. As Daenerys leaves for Westeros, he wanders Essos in search of a cure.	#29	5	0	0	0	5	0
Sansa Stark The second eldest of the Stark children. After being held as a prisoner of House Bolton, Sansa managed to escape and, with the help of Jon Snow and the Knights of the Vale, defeated Ramsay Bolton to reclaim Winterfell for the Starks. She is a huge fan of lemon cakes.	#5	3	0	3	0	0	0
Bronn A former sellsword, who has risen through the ranks of nobility thanks to his fighting skills and work for the Lannisters. He has accompanied Jaime Lannister on his missions to Dorne and Riverrun.	#20	0	0	0	0	0	0
Robin Arryn The young, sickly son of the late Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully. He is Lord of the Vale, although he is easily manipualted by Lord Petyr Baelish, who serves as Lord Protector until he comes of age.	#41	0	0	0	0	0	0
Gilly A wildling who lived north of the Wall. After she befriended Samwell Tarly, she escaped with him to Castle Black, and has sailed to Oldtown with Samwell as he begins his Maester's training.	#32	0	0	0	0	0	0
Aeron Greyjoy An uncle of Theon Greyjoy, who serves as a priest to the Drowned God.	#44	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		41	5	12	3	15	6

Kills

33:54 (+5) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell plies off the infected Greyscale tissue from Jorah's chest, with all the gentleness of a spoon digging through hot pie. (Major Injury of Named Character)

28 more comments - see full thread

You referenced Tyrion's scar which is tiny compared to that of a burn victim. So even if we made the criteria: Tyrion's scar or larger, I think we would still see quite a few injuries that might have otherwise been considered minor now being considered major.

Also real life burn victims don't have access to the medical ointments that Samwell is applying to Jorah, for all we know Jorah could come out of this looking like nothing happened. And I can assure you if that's the case I will definitely be arguing for these points to be removed retroactively. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25
Is anyone else having trouble with trades mine won't allow accept ion, rejection, or counter
-talindsey

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2017 Jul 28
@ssantise admittedly they've minimized Tyrion's scar in subsequent seasons. If you recall back to S2 they made a big thing about having bandaged up his entire face and was worried that Shae wouldn't love him anymore. I do think that if Tyrion recovers from the battle, has a cosmetic scar but they don't really make a big thing about it, it wouldn't be a major injury. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

43:40 (+1) Jon Snow:

Jon chokes a creeping Littlefinger against a wall in the Crypts of Winterfell. "Talk to my sister, and I'll kill you myself." (Minor Injury of Named Character)

51:13 (+4) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon cuts down two of Euron's soldiers as they board Yara's ship. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

51:16 (+6) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara kills three Greyjoy soldiers in the initial melee aboard her ship, throwing down one, slicing down a second, and killing a third on the backswing of her sword. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

51:31 (+4) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara slices two Greyjoy soldiers by the neck. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

52:01 (+4) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon kills two more soldiers. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

52:01 (+4) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara cuts the throat of one of Euron's soldiers, before turning to witness the fiery carnage of her fleet. As she regains her composure she stabs another soldier. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

53:09 (+2) Nymeria Sand:

Nymeria stabs an Ironborn, only to turn around to see her sister Obara being killed. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

53:18 (+1) Nymeria Sand:

In a fury after witnessing her sister Obara's death, Nymeria whip-grabbles Euron Greyjoy, spinning closer to slice him across the leg with her dagger. (Minor Injury of Named Character)

53:58 (+2) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara knocks an Ironborn soldier off the upper deck of her ship. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

54:43 (+2) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon cuts down one last Ironborn, before his uncle Euron calls to him. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

Political Wins

0:00 (+3) Arya Stark:

Arya encounters Nymeria in the forest, where she leads her own pack of wolves. (Acquire a New Castle/City/Army/Loot)

submitted by ssantise (approved!)

7 more comments - see full thread

Except the wolves left her... -craigdietz20

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2017 Jul 26
Technically, it's Nymeria's army of wolves, not Arya, as evidenced by Nymeria not choosing to go with her. -WampaLord

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2017 Jul 26
No one is saying that the wolves are Arya's. The wolves are Nymeria's army. Due to Arya's special she gets points whenever Nymeria gets points, regardless where Nymeria is or what she's doing. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 26 alicehanners and nyan like this

9:43 (+3) Melisandre:

Melisandre meets with Daenerys Targaryen, imploring her to meet and ally with Jon Snow for the war to come against the White Walkers. (Convincing Argument)

8 more comments - see full thread

IMO Jon Snow being the chosen one from Melisandre's visions is still just speculation, evidence-wise there's nothing different than when she said the same for Stannis. Not sure that Jon being King in the North is a secret, rather than simply news for Tyrion. -nyan

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2017 Jul 25
Yeah she didn't use her special. more of a reference by saying the "the night is long". Also, why did Randall not get points for insults when talking to Jamie? -talindsey

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2017 Jul 25
Followup discussion in http://fantasora.com/event/3368, this was changed from a "Deals Brokered" to a "Convincing Argument", it doesn't seem like we ever really reached a "deal" just by Daenerys deciding to send a letter. -nyan

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2017 Aug 2

30:55 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell sneaks into Jorah's room to try an experimental Greyscale treatment on him, despite Archmaester Ebrose's forbidding him to do so. (Executive Decision)

12 more comments - see full thread

a key component of an executive decision is that the decision is made to someone who you have power over. it cant be 'Executive' without that power dynamic. -hindsight44

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2017 Jul 24 nyan likes this
'Naughty' points? -xdwxrd

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2017 Jul 25
@ssantise I would not necessarily hold that followers and decisions are intertwined. Samwell is not directly a follower of the Archmaester, however the Archmaester is still making Citadel-wide rules for all Maesters (and Maesters-in-training), which Samwell must obey as part of the order. Just like a student is not necesarily a follower of a principal, but the principal can still make school-wide decisions that affect all the students. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

38:07 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell's letter is the final straw that convinces Jon Snow to ally with Daenerys Targaryen.

"This message was sent to me by Samwell Tarly. He was my brother at the Night's Watch. A man I trust as much as anyone in this world. He's discovered proof that Dragonstone sits on a mountain of dragonglass." (Convincing Argument)

14 more comments - see full thread

I don't like the idea of tweaking the rulebook constantly so that everyone can get as many points of possible. I think its important to have a concrete set of rules that we can all rely on. I agree that there must be room for changes as the show evolves but I feel there should be a bit more formality around making substantial changes to the rulebook. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25
@hindsight44 one definition of the word argument is a two-way debate that involves dialogue. but a "convincing argument" is just a one-way statement. if people exchange convincing arguments, that entire dialogue can be considered an argument. if an attorney presents an argument at a case, they are the only ones speaking, until the other side present their argument(s). if someone writes a critical essay (or like in this case, a letter), they are making a single argument to persuade the reader of something. these are all one-way arguments -hkeseyan

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2017 Jul 25
@ssantise and @hkeseyan, basically you are both on the sides that I'm trying to balance when refining the scorekeeping. As @ssantise says, for consistency and fairness, the rules shouldn't change drastically. And definitely not for reasons like "we want there to be as many scores as possible". But as @hkeseyan and I'm sure lots of people realized, there are lots of areas to improve on the scoring rules, and that's especially true since the original rules were just what I could think of on my own when I started the game - each year lots of players are bringing in new ideas and are continually making the game better, and we still haven't quite reached the point where everything if fully stabilized.

For this convincing argument case, I think @hkeseyan gets at a better spirit of the rules for scoring, which isn't strictly about the decision by a character being reversed, but simply a character effectively convincing another to go with their plan of action (but with some real effort needed to convince, not simply "Hey man you wanna kill some Lannisters? Sure let's do it.").

In hindsight it was a mistake on my part to word it concretely around a decision being already made - I had been thinking too narrowly about examples like Robert and his Small Council, and it doesn't cover things like a brooding, indecisive Jon even though that was the intention.

So given that, I'll change that rulebook line to the following:

A character can be "convinced" only after they had initially decided in the opposite decision, or shown some resistance or indecision to the arguments.

Definitely it's not taken lightly and I understand each of these changes affects the scoring expectations negatively. For the most part I hope all of these tweaks are getting closer in line with the spirit of what deserves scoring. And I believe, is not inconsistent with what we've scored before (if anyone is finding examples of rejected scores because a character was simply indecisive vs. fully decided in the opposite direction, let me know. But otherwise I think this is the first time it's come up.) -nyan

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2017 Jul 31 ssantise likes this

39:03 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow decides that he must go to Dragonstone to meet with Daenerys, despite objections from Sansa and nearly all the Northern lords. "Daenerys is a Queen. Only a King could convince her to help us. It has to be me." (Executive Decision)

41:39 (+3) Sansa Stark:

Sansa is given command of Winterfell as Jon travels to meet with Daenerys Targaryen. "You are my sister. You're the only Stark in Winterfell. Until I return, the North is yours." (New Title)

7 more comments - see full thread

its not a promotion if when jon comes back she is going to be right back where she was before, if hypothetically jon was to die on his way to dragonstone then yes sansa should be rewarded the points but since it is known that jon remains the king in the north upon his return then sansa shouldnt be rewarded points for being a stand-in. -as38

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2017 Jul 24
Edd Tolett got points last year as Interim LC. Sansa is Interim Warden of the North. Also these positions do exist in government. If the president is incapactated the Vice President takes over till the president can resume his office.

Sansa has no idea she is Jons 'vice' warden (she asks him angrily WHO will rule while hes gone because even she doesnt know.) So when Jon promotes her its new to her as well. Until this point Jon had not assigned a person to rule in the times when he couldnt. -hindsight44

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2017 Jul 24
Interim or acting titles will count. It's definitely new power for Sansa. Possibly this is better scored as "New Castle", as she's been given command of Winterfell? -nyan

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2017 Jul 24

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

0:00 (+3) Arya Stark:

Hot Pie: "You've been making pies?"
Arya: "One or two." (in reference to her Frey pies) (Funny Line)

submitted by ssantise (approved!)

48:28 (+3) Nymeria Sand:

Tyene Sand: "Maybe I'll kill you both before we take King's Landing. And then I won't have to share."
Obara and Nymeria: "(baby voice) Mammmaaa!" (Funny Line)

Glasses of Wine Consumed

31:39 (+5) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell takes a hearty swig of the rum he gives to Jorah, before attempting the Greyscale surgery. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

31:45 (+5) Jorah Mormont:

Jorah drinks the rum given to him by Samwell, as he braces himself to undergo the experimental Greyscale procedure. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

35:49 (+5) Arya Stark:

Arya goes for the ale after Hot Pie probes further into what she's been up to. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

48:33 (+5) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon drinks with Yara and Ellaria Sand below deck as they sail for Sunspear. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

48:33 (+5) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara drinks with Theon and Ellaria Sand below deck as they sail for Sunspear. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Acts of Intercourse

26:17 (+5) Grey Worm :

Grey Worm kisses Missandei after confessing that she is his one weakness. (Act of Intercourse)

28:00 (+10) Grey Worm :

Grey Worm gets with Missandei on the very last night before he sails off for Casterly Rock. (Act of Intercourse)

Deaths

53:30 (+5) Nymeria Sand:

Nymeria is bested by Euron Greyjoy, who blocks her dagger and strangles her with her own whip. (Death)

56:02 (+2) Nymeria Sand:

In the aftermath of Euron's ambush on Yara's fleet, Nymeria's body hangs from the bowsprit of the burning ship, with her own whip as a noose. (Dead Body Appearance)

Special

0:00 (+3) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara makes a pass at Ellaria below deck as Theon watches. (Special)

submitted by shannonferretti (approved!)

Yara 100% deserves points for this -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24 shannonferretti, Ser Vincent, Woodez like this
I think an event similar to this was submitted already -hkeseyan

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2017 Jul 24
She received points for her reference on being a lesbian ("boy or girl, depends on the port"), but hasn't received any points yet for actually flirting and making out with Ellaria. -Ser Vincent

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2017 Jul 24 nyan and Woodez like this

10:48 (+3) Jon Snow:

Sansa reading Tyrion's letter to Jon Snow: "All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes." (Special)

Sure Tyrion alludes to Jon Snow being a bastard by calling himself a bastard, but he doesn't outright call Jon Snow a bastard. Does Jon get points every time he's called by his last name "Snow" which alludes to the fact that hes a bastard? -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
He gets points for the word bastard only. The words are on paper but Sansa says them out loud anyway. -nyan

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2017 Jul 24
fair enough -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24

29:52 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell mentions that he has potentially found a treatment option for Jorah Mormont's greyscale in a book. "I found the procedure in a study of rare diseases by Archmaester Pylos". (Special)

31:52 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell opens up Archmaester Pylos' tome on Rare Diseases, which contains the instructions for the Greyscale treatment he is to perform on Jorah. (Special)

48:41 (+3) Yara Greyjoy:

Ellaria Sand: "You ever been to Dorne?"
Yara: "A few times. Never stayed long."
Ellaria: "A boy in every port."
Yara: "A boy. A girl. Depends on the port." (Special)

55:00 (+3) Theon Greyjoy:

Euron taunts Theon into fleeing the battle as he holds Yara captive: "Ah come on, you cockless coward. I have her. Come and get her." (Special)

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