Matchup: Queen of the North vs The Manning Faced God for Ep 2

Queen of the North (lolikaj)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Sex	Special
Missandei A freed slave from Astapor, who serves Daenerys as an advisor and translator.	#26	28	0	0	0	0	25	3
Yara Greyjoy Theon's older sister, Yara was raised on the Iron Islands as a true Ironborn. She is a fearsome fighter and commands a longship of her own. After her uncle Euron Greyjoy seizes control of the Iron Islands, she flees with Theon and her loyal troops to ally with Daenerys Targaryen, whose dragons and armies sail west to retake Westeros.	#11	27	16	0	0	5	0	6
Theon Greyjoy Heir to the Iron Islands, and formerly a ward of House Stark. Theon is slowly recovering from physical and mental breakdown during his time as a prisoner of Ramsay Bolton. He currently accompanies his sister Yara Greyjoy, who has pledged her Ironborn forces to the cause of Daenerys Targaryen.	#23	18	10	0	0	5	0	3
Grey Worm The leader of the Unsullied - a highly-trained army of freed slaves who serve Daenerys Targaryen.	#14	15	0	0	0	0	15	0
Daenerys Targaryen Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Mother of Dragons and Breaker of Chains. With her three dragons and army of Unsullied soldiers she carved out an empire of liberated slave cities in the east, and she now sets her sights westward as she sails for the Seven Kingdoms to reclaim the Iron Throne.	#2	6	0	3	3	0	0	0
Totals		94	26	3	3	10	40	12

The Manning Faced God (cgrnbrg)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Wine	Special
Samwell Tarly A steward of the Night's Watch, Samwell has been sent south to Oldtown to begin his training as a Maester. He is a close friend to Jon Snow, and one of the few people known to have killed a White Walker.	#28	22	5	6	5	6
Jon Snow Recently declared King in the North, he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, and formerly served as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch before he was betrayed by his fellow men.	#4	7	1	3	0	3
Bronn A former sellsword, who has risen through the ranks of nobility thanks to his fighting skills and work for the Lannisters. He has accompanied Jaime Lannister on his missions to Dorne and Riverrun.	#16	0	0	0	0	0
Brienne of Tarth A skilled fighter and heir to House Tarth. After swearing an oath to Catelyn Stark, she continues her mission to ensure the safety of the Stark girls.	#9	0	0	0	0	0
Olenna Redwyne (Grandma Tyrell) The matriarch of House Tyrell, Olenna seeks only revenge against the Lannisters after Cersei wiped out nearly all of House Tyrell in the wildfire explosion at the Sept of Baelor. She is known as the "Queen of Thorns" for her sarcasm and wit.	#21	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		29	6	9	5	9

Kills

33:54 (+5) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell plies off the infected Greyscale tissue from Jorah's chest, with all the gentleness of a spoon digging through hot pie. (Major Injury of Named Character)

28 more comments - see full thread

You referenced Tyrion's scar which is tiny compared to that of a burn victim. So even if we made the criteria: Tyrion's scar or larger, I think we would still see quite a few injuries that might have otherwise been considered minor now being considered major.

Also real life burn victims don't have access to the medical ointments that Samwell is applying to Jorah, for all we know Jorah could come out of this looking like nothing happened. And I can assure you if that's the case I will definitely be arguing for these points to be removed retroactively. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25
Is anyone else having trouble with trades mine won't allow accept ion, rejection, or counter
-talindsey

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2017 Jul 28
@ssantise admittedly they've minimized Tyrion's scar in subsequent seasons. If you recall back to S2 they made a big thing about having bandaged up his entire face and was worried that Shae wouldn't love him anymore. I do think that if Tyrion recovers from the battle, has a cosmetic scar but they don't really make a big thing about it, it wouldn't be a major injury. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

43:40 (+1) Jon Snow:

Jon chokes a creeping Littlefinger against a wall in the Crypts of Winterfell. "Talk to my sister, and I'll kill you myself." (Minor Injury of Named Character)

51:13 (+4) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon cuts down two of Euron's soldiers as they board Yara's ship. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

51:16 (+6) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara kills three Greyjoy soldiers in the initial melee aboard her ship, throwing down one, slicing down a second, and killing a third on the backswing of her sword. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

51:31 (+4) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara slices two Greyjoy soldiers by the neck. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

52:01 (+4) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon kills two more soldiers. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

52:01 (+4) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara cuts the throat of one of Euron's soldiers, before turning to witness the fiery carnage of her fleet. As she regains her composure she stabs another soldier. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

53:58 (+2) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara knocks an Ironborn soldier off the upper deck of her ship. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

54:43 (+2) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon cuts down one last Ironborn, before his uncle Euron calls to him. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

Political Wins

21:06 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

Daenerys overrules the direct assault advocated by the Greyjoys, Tyrells, and Dornish, opting for a less violent siege on King's Landing and attack on Casterly Rock. (Executive Decision)

I will admit that I did not play in the league last year but just like the rule about brokering a deal that you must be a third party this seems to fall under the same logic.
According to the rulebook: Overruling: An "executive" decision is made unilaterally over the protest of at least 1 third party involved in the discussion
Overruling doesn't apply to a second party who is the target of the discussion.

Daenerys is the second party and the target of the discussion. The Greyjoys, Tyrells, and Dornish are trying to convince her and her army to do something not a third party. Danerys is speaking on her own behalf not for someone else. I feel that is directly falls under the exception stated in the rulebook
-ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
The 2nd party is meant as the target of the decision. So for Joffrey executing Ned, Ned is the 2nd party, so obviously his disagreement will be overridden, but if any small council members protested they would be counted as opposition. -nyan

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2017 Jul 24
Yes and i believe Daenerys and her army are the target of the decision. My argument was constructed around the logic behind the reasoning for brokering a deal role. Which was designed so characters like vayrs and little finger can get points but not characters like Jon Snow and Daenerys since they will allready be getting points when the actual event occurs e.g. (when Daenerys actually follows through with the attack on Casterly Rock and King's Landing) -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
she will get her points then

forgot to add this to my last comment -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
Hmmm @ssantise you make a fair point. I suppose a rules rewording may be in order, to better get behind the spirit of the idea: if Joffrey orders Ned to be executed, and everybody is onboard with it except for Ned who obviously is not, it's not a very politically tough decision - there is nobody Joffrey had to convince or overrule to carry it out. Here Daenerys has credible resistance to her decision, and she either has to convince or intimidate her allies into obeying. I suppose in the Joffrey case, the thing about Ned's opposition that doesn't matter is not that he's the 2nd party, but that as a prisoner he doesn't have any political power that would matter in the decision. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

30:55 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell sneaks into Jorah's room to try an experimental Greyscale treatment on him, despite Archmaester Ebrose's forbidding him to do so. (Executive Decision)

12 more comments - see full thread

a key component of an executive decision is that the decision is made to someone who you have power over. it cant be 'Executive' without that power dynamic. -hindsight44

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2017 Jul 24 nyan likes this
'Naughty' points? -xdwxrd

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2017 Jul 25
@ssantise I would not necessarily hold that followers and decisions are intertwined. Samwell is not directly a follower of the Archmaester, however the Archmaester is still making Citadel-wide rules for all Maesters (and Maesters-in-training), which Samwell must obey as part of the order. Just like a student is not necesarily a follower of a principal, but the principal can still make school-wide decisions that affect all the students. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

38:07 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell's letter is the final straw that convinces Jon Snow to ally with Daenerys Targaryen.

"This message was sent to me by Samwell Tarly. He was my brother at the Night's Watch. A man I trust as much as anyone in this world. He's discovered proof that Dragonstone sits on a mountain of dragonglass." (Convincing Argument)

14 more comments - see full thread

I don't like the idea of tweaking the rulebook constantly so that everyone can get as many points of possible. I think its important to have a concrete set of rules that we can all rely on. I agree that there must be room for changes as the show evolves but I feel there should be a bit more formality around making substantial changes to the rulebook. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25
@hindsight44 one definition of the word argument is a two-way debate that involves dialogue. but a "convincing argument" is just a one-way statement. if people exchange convincing arguments, that entire dialogue can be considered an argument. if an attorney presents an argument at a case, they are the only ones speaking, until the other side present their argument(s). if someone writes a critical essay (or like in this case, a letter), they are making a single argument to persuade the reader of something. these are all one-way arguments -hkeseyan

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2017 Jul 25
@ssantise and @hkeseyan, basically you are both on the sides that I'm trying to balance when refining the scorekeeping. As @ssantise says, for consistency and fairness, the rules shouldn't change drastically. And definitely not for reasons like "we want there to be as many scores as possible". But as @hkeseyan and I'm sure lots of people realized, there are lots of areas to improve on the scoring rules, and that's especially true since the original rules were just what I could think of on my own when I started the game - each year lots of players are bringing in new ideas and are continually making the game better, and we still haven't quite reached the point where everything if fully stabilized.

For this convincing argument case, I think @hkeseyan gets at a better spirit of the rules for scoring, which isn't strictly about the decision by a character being reversed, but simply a character effectively convincing another to go with their plan of action (but with some real effort needed to convince, not simply "Hey man you wanna kill some Lannisters? Sure let's do it.").

In hindsight it was a mistake on my part to word it concretely around a decision being already made - I had been thinking too narrowly about examples like Robert and his Small Council, and it doesn't cover things like a brooding, indecisive Jon even though that was the intention.

So given that, I'll change that rulebook line to the following:

A character can be "convinced" only after they had initially decided in the opposite decision, or shown some resistance or indecision to the arguments.

Definitely it's not taken lightly and I understand each of these changes affects the scoring expectations negatively. For the most part I hope all of these tweaks are getting closer in line with the spirit of what deserves scoring. And I believe, is not inconsistent with what we've scored before (if anyone is finding examples of rejected scores because a character was simply indecisive vs. fully decided in the opposite direction, let me know. But otherwise I think this is the first time it's come up.) -nyan

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2017 Jul 31 ssantise likes this

39:03 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow decides that he must go to Dragonstone to meet with Daenerys, despite objections from Sansa and nearly all the Northern lords. "Daenerys is a Queen. Only a King could convince her to help us. It has to be me." (Executive Decision)

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

0:00 (+3) Daenerys Targaryen:

on Melisandre's arrival to Dragonstone, after Varys protests that she had served Stannis Baratheon: "You chose an auspicious day to arrive at Dragonstone. We've just decided to pardon those who once served the wrong King." (Witty Insult)

submitted by kimberly.ramia (approved!)

I didn't think this line was particularly humorous. I will say that it was well said or creative but according to the rulebook only insults and threats get points for this. Since this quote was neither, it should only get points for being funny, which it is not. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
I'll grant it, I didn't think it was humorous, but it is partway to an insult as a way of shutting down Varys' objections and reminding him of his sorta-hypocrisy. -nyan

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2017 Jul 25
This is true, i didnt take into account that Varys was in the room when she said this and even though she was speaking to Melisandre, the jab was directed a Varys. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25

Glasses of Wine Consumed

31:39 (+5) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell takes a hearty swig of the rum he gives to Jorah, before attempting the Greyscale surgery. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

48:33 (+5) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon drinks with Yara and Ellaria Sand below deck as they sail for Sunspear. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

48:33 (+5) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara drinks with Theon and Ellaria Sand below deck as they sail for Sunspear. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Acts of Intercourse

26:17 (+5) Grey Worm :

Grey Worm kisses Missandei after confessing that she is his one weakness. (Act of Intercourse)

26:45 (+25) Missandei:

Missandei gets with Grey Worm on the very last night before he sails off for Casterly Rock. (Act of Intercourse)

21 more comments - see full thread

If only this website was as popular when we had the old Theon/Myrham's Daughter on Ship debate, what would the masses have said! -coconnor723

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2017 Jul 26 nyan likes this
Grey worm's mouth made contact with her vagina. The rules don't say genital-on-genital contact. Also I hate the term reproductive organ since the vagina doesn't really do any of the reproduction.

She def didn't show box tho -alicehanners

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2017 Jul 30
Ah, good points that you brought up, 'reproductive' was the wrong word to use. I'll change that to contact with the same nude parts that are counted for points (boobs, butts, and the frontal nudity). I suppose that now includes spanking as a sexual act. ?

Will also clarify in the rulebook that it's just one person's sexy bits that need to be contacted to count. So giving a handie or oral sex will count for both people, it doesn't need to be fully reciprocal. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

28:00 (+10) Grey Worm :

Grey Worm gets with Missandei on the very last night before he sails off for Casterly Rock. (Act of Intercourse)

Special

0:00 (+3) Yara Greyjoy:

Yara makes a pass at Ellaria below deck as Theon watches. (Special)

submitted by shannonferretti (approved!)

Yara 100% deserves points for this -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24 shannonferretti, Ser Vincent, Woodez like this
I think an event similar to this was submitted already -hkeseyan

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2017 Jul 24
She received points for her reference on being a lesbian ("boy or girl, depends on the port"), but hasn't received any points yet for actually flirting and making out with Ellaria. -Ser Vincent

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2017 Jul 24 nyan and Woodez like this

8:35 (+3) Missandei:

Missandei gives a lesson on Valyrian gendered pronouns in ancient prophecies: "Your Grace, forgive me, but your translation is not quite accurate. That noun has no gender in High Valyrian, so proper translation for that prophecy would be 'the prince or princess who was promised will bring the dawn'. (Special)

10:48 (+3) Jon Snow:

Sansa reading Tyrion's letter to Jon Snow: "All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes." (Special)

Sure Tyrion alludes to Jon Snow being a bastard by calling himself a bastard, but he doesn't outright call Jon Snow a bastard. Does Jon get points every time he's called by his last name "Snow" which alludes to the fact that hes a bastard? -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
He gets points for the word bastard only. The words are on paper but Sansa says them out loud anyway. -nyan

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2017 Jul 24
fair enough -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24

29:52 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell mentions that he has potentially found a treatment option for Jorah Mormont's greyscale in a book. "I found the procedure in a study of rare diseases by Archmaester Pylos". (Special)

31:52 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell opens up Archmaester Pylos' tome on Rare Diseases, which contains the instructions for the Greyscale treatment he is to perform on Jorah. (Special)

48:41 (+3) Yara Greyjoy:

Ellaria Sand: "You ever been to Dorne?"
Yara: "A few times. Never stayed long."
Ellaria: "A boy in every port."
Yara: "A boy. A girl. Depends on the port." (Special)

55:00 (+3) Theon Greyjoy:

Euron taunts Theon into fleeing the battle as he holds Yara captive: "Ah come on, you cockless coward. I have her. Come and get her." (Special)

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