Matchup: Red Viper Wines vs Game of Theons for Ep 2

Title required, pants optional

Red Viper Wines (extinctfigment)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Insults	Wine	Sex	Special
Samwell Tarly A steward of the Night's Watch, Samwell has been sent south to Oldtown to begin his training as a Maester. He is a close friend to Jon Snow, and one of the few people known to have killed a White Walker.	#10	22	5	6	0	5	0	6
Grey Worm The leader of the Unsullied - a highly-trained army of freed slaves who serve Daenerys Targaryen.	#26	15	0	0	0	0	15	0
Tyrion Lannister Quick to wit and even quicker to the drink, Tyrion is the youngest of three Lannister children. After being exiled by his sister Cersei, he has joined with Daenerys Targaryen, serving as her Hand of the Queen and most trusted adviser.	#2	9	0	6	3	0	0	0
Jon Snow Recently declared King in the North, he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, and formerly served as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch before he was betrayed by his fellow men.	#7	7	1	3	0	0	0	3
Davos Seaworth Formerly Hand of the King to Stannis Baratheon, Davos now advises Jon Snow. He is often at odds with the Red Priestess Melisandre.	#15	6	0	3	3	0	0	0
Qyburn The new Master of Whispers in King's Landing, loyally serving Queen Cersei Lannister. A disgraced former Maester, he engages in many scientific experiments in his dungeon lab	#31	3	0	0	0	0	0	3
White Walker (Night King) The leader of the White Walkers.	#18	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Tormund Giantsbane Formerly a lieutenant of Mance Rayder, the King beyond the Wall, Tormund is now the de facto leader of the Wildlings and a reasoned voice in rallying them behind the cause of Jon Snow.	#23	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		62	6	18	6	5	15	12

Game of Theons (realaregula)

Character	Drafted	Total	Kills	Politics	Wine	Special
Theon Greyjoy Heir to the Iron Islands, and formerly a ward of House Stark. Theon is slowly recovering from physical and mental breakdown during his time as a prisoner of Ramsay Bolton. He currently accompanies his sister Yara Greyjoy, who has pledged her Ironborn forces to the cause of Daenerys Targaryen.	#13	18	10	0	5	3
Sansa Stark The second eldest of the Stark children. After being held as a prisoner of House Bolton, Sansa managed to escape and, with the help of Jon Snow and the Knights of the Vale, defeated Ramsay Bolton to reclaim Winterfell for the Starks. She is a huge fan of lemon cakes.	#4	3	0	3	0	0
Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger) Lord Protector of the Vale, Littlefinger effectively controls the Knights of the Vale through the easily manipulated Robbin Arryn. He is a master manipulator who will stop at nothing for power.	#20	0	0	0	0	0
Lyanna Mormont The spunky young head of House Mormont.	#28	0	0	0	0	0
Sandor Clegane (The Hound) A fearsome Lannister knight, formerly known as the Hound. After being left for dead after losing a fight with Brienne of Tarth, he recovered and briefly reformed as a laborer in a nonviolent commune, but has joined with Beric Dondarrion and the Brotherhood without Banners after bandits attack and destroy the village.	#5	0	0	0	0	0
Gendry A bastard son of Robert Baratheon, although this fact is not widely known (even to Gendry himself). After being captured by Melisandre, he is freed by Ser Davos and escaped Dragonstone by rowboat. His whereabouts are currently unknown, but he will likely emerge at some point with the swolest arms Westeros has ever seen.	#21	0	0	0	0	0
Bran Stark The fourth of the Stark children. A greenseer and a warg, Bran has mystical visions of the future and past, and has the ability to leap into the minds of others to control them - power he is only beginning to tap into. After having encountered the Three-Eyed Raven and the Night King in the far north, he now flees back south to the Wall.	#12	0	0	0	0	0
Meera Reed The eldest child of Howland Reed, bannerman to the Starks. She assists Bran in his journeys north of the Wall and is the only other surviving member of his party.	#29	0	0	0	0	0
Totals		21	10	3	5	3

Kills

33:54 (+5) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell plies off the infected Greyscale tissue from Jorah's chest, with all the gentleness of a spoon digging through hot pie. (Major Injury of Named Character)

28 more comments - see full thread

You referenced Tyrion's scar which is tiny compared to that of a burn victim. So even if we made the criteria: Tyrion's scar or larger, I think we would still see quite a few injuries that might have otherwise been considered minor now being considered major.

Also real life burn victims don't have access to the medical ointments that Samwell is applying to Jorah, for all we know Jorah could come out of this looking like nothing happened. And I can assure you if that's the case I will definitely be arguing for these points to be removed retroactively. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25
Is anyone else having trouble with trades mine won't allow accept ion, rejection, or counter
-talindsey

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2017 Jul 28
@ssantise admittedly they've minimized Tyrion's scar in subsequent seasons. If you recall back to S2 they made a big thing about having bandaged up his entire face and was worried that Shae wouldn't love him anymore. I do think that if Tyrion recovers from the battle, has a cosmetic scar but they don't really make a big thing about it, it wouldn't be a major injury. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

43:40 (+1) Jon Snow:

Jon chokes a creeping Littlefinger against a wall in the Crypts of Winterfell. "Talk to my sister, and I'll kill you myself." (Minor Injury of Named Character)

51:13 (+4) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon cuts down two of Euron's soldiers as they board Yara's ship. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

52:01 (+4) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon kills two more soldiers. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

54:43 (+2) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon cuts down one last Ironborn, before his uncle Euron calls to him. (Kill of Unnamed Character)

Political Wins

0:00 (+3) Davos Seaworth:

Davos suggests that Daenerys's dragons will be a powerful asset against the fight against the wights, and suggests allying with her, despite Sansa's protests. Ultimately, Jon decides to personally travel to Dragonstone to meet with Daenerys, citing Davos' arguments in his appeal to the Northern Lords.

"What breathes fire?" ... "But if the army of the dead makes it past the wall, do we have enough men to fight them?"

(Convincing Argument)

submitted by hkeseyan (approved!)

10:18 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

Tyrion convinces Daenerys to follow Melisandre's proposal to ally with Jon Snow. "I can't speak to prophecies or visions in the flame... but I like Jon Snow, and I trusted him. And I am an excellent judge of character." (Convincing Argument)

20:31 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

Tyrion's earlier advice wins over Daenerys, as she opts for a slower, more politically-calculated siege rather than the violent direct-assault on King's Landing advocated by her Westerosi allies. "I am not here to be Queen of the Ashes." (Convincing Argument)

30:55 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell sneaks into Jorah's room to try an experimental Greyscale treatment on him, despite Archmaester Ebrose's forbidding him to do so. (Executive Decision)

12 more comments - see full thread

a key component of an executive decision is that the decision is made to someone who you have power over. it cant be 'Executive' without that power dynamic. -hindsight44

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2017 Jul 24 nyan likes this
'Naughty' points? -xdwxrd

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2017 Jul 25
@ssantise I would not necessarily hold that followers and decisions are intertwined. Samwell is not directly a follower of the Archmaester, however the Archmaester is still making Citadel-wide rules for all Maesters (and Maesters-in-training), which Samwell must obey as part of the order. Just like a student is not necesarily a follower of a principal, but the principal can still make school-wide decisions that affect all the students. -nyan

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2017 Jul 31

38:07 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell's letter is the final straw that convinces Jon Snow to ally with Daenerys Targaryen.

"This message was sent to me by Samwell Tarly. He was my brother at the Night's Watch. A man I trust as much as anyone in this world. He's discovered proof that Dragonstone sits on a mountain of dragonglass." (Convincing Argument)

14 more comments - see full thread

I don't like the idea of tweaking the rulebook constantly so that everyone can get as many points of possible. I think its important to have a concrete set of rules that we can all rely on. I agree that there must be room for changes as the show evolves but I feel there should be a bit more formality around making substantial changes to the rulebook. -ssantise

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2017 Jul 25
@hindsight44 one definition of the word argument is a two-way debate that involves dialogue. but a "convincing argument" is just a one-way statement. if people exchange convincing arguments, that entire dialogue can be considered an argument. if an attorney presents an argument at a case, they are the only ones speaking, until the other side present their argument(s). if someone writes a critical essay (or like in this case, a letter), they are making a single argument to persuade the reader of something. these are all one-way arguments -hkeseyan

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2017 Jul 25
@ssantise and @hkeseyan, basically you are both on the sides that I'm trying to balance when refining the scorekeeping. As @ssantise says, for consistency and fairness, the rules shouldn't change drastically. And definitely not for reasons like "we want there to be as many scores as possible". But as @hkeseyan and I'm sure lots of people realized, there are lots of areas to improve on the scoring rules, and that's especially true since the original rules were just what I could think of on my own when I started the game - each year lots of players are bringing in new ideas and are continually making the game better, and we still haven't quite reached the point where everything if fully stabilized.

For this convincing argument case, I think @hkeseyan gets at a better spirit of the rules for scoring, which isn't strictly about the decision by a character being reversed, but simply a character effectively convincing another to go with their plan of action (but with some real effort needed to convince, not simply "Hey man you wanna kill some Lannisters? Sure let's do it.").

In hindsight it was a mistake on my part to word it concretely around a decision being already made - I had been thinking too narrowly about examples like Robert and his Small Council, and it doesn't cover things like a brooding, indecisive Jon even though that was the intention.

So given that, I'll change that rulebook line to the following:

A character can be "convinced" only after they had initially decided in the opposite decision, or shown some resistance or indecision to the arguments.

Definitely it's not taken lightly and I understand each of these changes affects the scoring expectations negatively. For the most part I hope all of these tweaks are getting closer in line with the spirit of what deserves scoring. And I believe, is not inconsistent with what we've scored before (if anyone is finding examples of rejected scores because a character was simply indecisive vs. fully decided in the opposite direction, let me know. But otherwise I think this is the first time it's come up.) -nyan

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2017 Jul 31 ssantise likes this

39:03 (+3) Jon Snow:

Jon Snow decides that he must go to Dragonstone to meet with Daenerys, despite objections from Sansa and nearly all the Northern lords. "Daenerys is a Queen. Only a King could convince her to help us. It has to be me." (Executive Decision)

41:39 (+3) Sansa Stark:

Sansa is given command of Winterfell as Jon travels to meet with Daenerys Targaryen. "You are my sister. You're the only Stark in Winterfell. Until I return, the North is yours." (New Title)

7 more comments - see full thread

its not a promotion if when jon comes back she is going to be right back where she was before, if hypothetically jon was to die on his way to dragonstone then yes sansa should be rewarded the points but since it is known that jon remains the king in the north upon his return then sansa shouldnt be rewarded points for being a stand-in. -as38

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2017 Jul 24
Edd Tolett got points last year as Interim LC. Sansa is Interim Warden of the North. Also these positions do exist in government. If the president is incapactated the Vice President takes over till the president can resume his office.

Sansa has no idea she is Jons 'vice' warden (she asks him angrily WHO will rule while hes gone because even she doesnt know.) So when Jon promotes her its new to her as well. Until this point Jon had not assigned a person to rule in the times when he couldnt. -hindsight44

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2017 Jul 24
Interim or acting titles will count. It's definitely new power for Sansa. Possibly this is better scored as "New Castle", as she's been given command of Winterfell? -nyan

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2017 Jul 24

Insults Delivered / Funny Lines

0:00 (+3) Davos Seaworth:

Davos' comments on the letter from Tyrion: "Sounds like a charmer. Casual mention of a Dothraki horde, a legion of Unsullied, and 3 dragons - a bit less charming." (Funny Line)

submitted by pacelli929 (approved!)

10:18 (+3) Tyrion Lannister:

Tyrion while convincing Daenerys to follow Melisandre's proposal to ally with Jon Snow. "I can't speak to prophecies or visions in the flame... but I like Jon Snow, and I trusted him. And I am an excellent judge of character." (Funny Line)

Glasses of Wine Consumed

31:39 (+5) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell takes a hearty swig of the rum he gives to Jorah, before attempting the Greyscale surgery. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

48:33 (+5) Theon Greyjoy:

Theon drinks with Yara and Ellaria Sand below deck as they sail for Sunspear. (Glass of Wine Consumed)

Acts of Intercourse

26:17 (+5) Grey Worm :

Grey Worm kisses Missandei after confessing that she is his one weakness. (Act of Intercourse)

28:00 (+10) Grey Worm :

Grey Worm gets with Missandei on the very last night before he sails off for Casterly Rock. (Act of Intercourse)

Special

10:48 (+3) Jon Snow:

Sansa reading Tyrion's letter to Jon Snow: "All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes." (Special)

Sure Tyrion alludes to Jon Snow being a bastard by calling himself a bastard, but he doesn't outright call Jon Snow a bastard. Does Jon get points every time he's called by his last name "Snow" which alludes to the fact that hes a bastard? -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24
He gets points for the word bastard only. The words are on paper but Sansa says them out loud anyway. -nyan

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2017 Jul 24
fair enough -ssantise

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2017 Jul 24

19:17 (+3) Qyburn:

Qyburn presents a high-powered dragon-killing ballista to Cersei. "Apparently, one of Daenerys' dragons was wounded by spears in the fighting pits of Meereen. If they can be wounded, they can be killed." (Special)

29:52 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell mentions that he has potentially found a treatment option for Jorah Mormont's greyscale in a book. "I found the procedure in a study of rare diseases by Archmaester Pylos". (Special)

31:52 (+3) Samwell Tarly:

Samwell opens up Archmaester Pylos' tome on Rare Diseases, which contains the instructions for the Greyscale treatment he is to perform on Jorah. (Special)

55:00 (+3) Theon Greyjoy:

Euron taunts Theon into fleeing the battle as he holds Yara captive: "Ah come on, you cockless coward. I have her. Come and get her." (Special)

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